Are EPQs worth doing?

[Sarahcoggles]

DS is about to start second year of 6th form. Usual story - bright but lazy - started 6th form with AAA predictions, but now probably more like Cs. He's doing history, geography and French, and wants to study geography at university.

His school offer EPQ but didn't mention it until end of last term, and the kids are meant to choose their topics over the summer, and start doing it next term. They've had very little support and no one seems to be guiding them at all. Annoyingly the other local 6th form did theirs last year so they're all finished.

My understanding is that EPQ gives you some extra UCAS points, which can help with university places, but that it's a reasonable amount of work.

DS is wondering if he should not bother to do an EPQ, and should focus on his A levels more, given that time is limited and he needs to improve his grades.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

Focus on the 3 a levels and likely secure a place at uni anyway, the rate unconditional are given out.

this is rubbish. Unconditional offers are rare

My DD did an EPQ and for an A so for her personally it was worth it as she had the chance of working at a level where you write a 5000 word essay. She got a reduced offer at York because of her dyslexia but perhaps the EPQ made a difference to that offer too.
In the end she wouldn't have needed the lower offer as her grades were really good, and she's starting in September. Her school started the EPQ prep about the same time as your DS's OP so as you say a little late. If your DS doesn't want to do the EPQ there's little point as he may not be able to summon up the enthusiasm.

I'd say yes if he can put effort in to it, my DD got her uni insurance offer (she didn't get her 1st choice) on Thursday on the basis (we think) that she got an A in her EPQ. The insurance uni course wanted BBB and she got ABC plus EPQ A which gave her enough ucas points. Although not all unis take EPQ in to account I believe.

I’d say absolutely not. I’m a teacher and was an EPQ tutor for quite a few years. It only works well if the student is really self motivated as it is largely independent. Year 13 is a very busy year - I pour students do EPQ in Year 12 and complete in September to allow time for UCAS , coursework, etc,

DD did hers in year 12. 4 out of the 5 Uni's she applied to didn't take it into account when making her offer. She's glad she did it - she's the type of student to make the most and get a lot out of it. But it hasn't made any difference to her getting a place. I agree that year 13 is not the time to do it though, it's better to focus on the actual A Levels.

Hmm. My dd did an EPQ because she had a subject she was really interested in, she knew it would help with her Uni offer, and she is motivated and works really hard. She was predicted AAA. In the end she got AAB and an A for her EPQ, and got into her first choice Uni, so I think the EPQ helped.

But it is a lot of work on top of A levels, so if your son is having problems keeping his grades up, he might be better focusing on them.

Schools are not supposed to provide much help with EPQs - dd has two meetings with a teacher, that was it.

But at his interview at Durham they didn't accept EPQ's. Nor Nottingham. So why bother?

Nottingham do accept them, @Oblomov22
Dd got a reduced offer because of her EPQ, which was linked to the course she wanted to study at Nottingham.

And dd did hers in Year 13, so it is possible. But she worked bloody hard.

But at his interview at Durham they didn't accept EPQ's. Nor Nottingham. So why bother?

I think two things are perhaps being conflated. Of my son's offers, only one (Exeter) reduced their standard offer if he got an A* in an EPQ.

But I strongly believe it made a difference to the number of offers he's received, including Durham. Being able to write a paragraph in his personal statement about his degree-related EPQ was good evidence of his interest in the subject.

Our (private) school received hardly any Durham offers this year (in fact, far fewer than Oxford) and his friends had similar GCSE grades and well-written personal statements.

Maybe it wasn't his EPQ, he'll never know but I think there's an indirect benefit if it's a subject-related project, even if it's not a reduced offer.

My DS is currently finishing his EPQ which has been an enormous amount of work, he is doing it as he is applying to Oxbridge and shows extra research in what he wants to study. Non of his other choice Universities will give him a lower offer because of his EPQ. I think doing an EPQ in year 13 along with other coursework wouldn't be a good idea, too much work.

DS did his in year 12 and got an A - would’ve been an A* if he’d been more assiduous with the admin bits (the log). He got a reduced offer from one of his choices and it might have helped him get offers from his other 4, 3 of which were pretty competitive, and it was relevant to his subject. It’s only going to be relevant for UCAS points if the university offers on the basis of them, though, and as others have said, it may not be a good idea to do it in year 13 in the circumstances.

I’m a DH of Sixth Form-It depends which Universities your son plans to apply to. I would have a good look at the course requirements.
Not all Universities accept the EPQ as part of their offer, but welcome the skills it builds and the level of independence it demonstrates. He can demonstrate this in his personal statement/interview.
Universities which ask for grades may also include it as part of their offer and may give a reduced grades offer. For example an AAA course might reduce their offer to AAB plus an EPQ.
Universities which are points based tend to be ‘recruiting’ universities and may or may not include EPQ as part of their points based offer anyway. They tend to have slightly lower entry standards in any case.
Generally Universities want three good grades and the EPQ is time consuming, particularly if he isn’t very motivated.
I have seen that sometimes where students have missed their offer/dropped a grade on results day they have still been awarded a place on the basis that they have achieved a good grade in their EPQ, so in this respect it can be useful.
As a Geography teacher I would say that the NEA is a substantial piece of work and the focus might be better placed on his A Levels.
It’s not unusual for schools to start EPQ at the end of year 12 for hand in the Autumn term of year 13. Students are more mature and sophisticated thinkers at this point.
From reading your post it sounds like his heart probably wouldn’t be in it and perhaps his efforts would be better focused on his core subjects. There are plenty of other ways to demonstrate interest in a subject E.g wider reading, MOOCs, essay competitions.

Like pp I would tend to counsel against it for a 'bright but lazy' profile. It's a huge amount of extra work and stress for rather opaque benefits. DS didn't do one and focused on getting 3 strong A-levels instead. He still had offers from all his choices, including Cambridge; he demonstrated commitment to his subject in other ways (such as entering essay competitions and reading beyond the curriculum). I think because not all schools offer EPQs or a fourth A-level universities don't take them into account as much as people think they might. DS is better at working intensely in shorter bursts to tight deadlines, which has turned out to be just right for his essay-based degree.

Dd only got a C in hers, although she got AAB in her A levels last week. Her friend got C too and got ABB. Other friend got B but got AAA Even though their Epq results weren't brilliant it hasn't affected where they wanted to go. The place she is going Warwivk made their offer after her EPQ was shown on ucas. I do think it was useful for her to explore and demonstrate her interest in her subject in her PS. A local college tells students in advance they'll all get A or A, so I'm guessing they provide more guidance than dd's school.

Wasn't supposed to be bolded. Supposed to say her friend got A star x 3 but B in the epq and the local college tells students before they start the epq they will all get A or A star and they do so probably some schools provide more help than others

I teach EPQ. We start in year 12 but students carry on into y13. They have done enough research by then to write good personal statements, but have the maturity to finish it off.

In the case of your DS and given his other subjects, I don't think it's a good idea for him. He should focus on his main subjects.

To those who trot out the familiar lines about how Oxbridge aren't interested etc., one of my group 2 years ago studied a historical period of a completely different part of the world for his EPQ. He was asked about it in his Cambridge interview and ended up in a discussion about what he had read. He got an offer, which he subsequently achieved. My own DD was asked about her science artefact EPQ in her interview in person in Cambridge in 2016 and again was offered a place. For me, the skills covered in the EPQ, the planning, researching, synthesising, analysis, planning, personal organisation, referencing and source analysis mean that when they start university, they have a head-start on those who haven't done it.

Absolutely @Malbecfan
Given if you're applying for Oxbridge you're supposed to reading round your subject yourself anyway, it makes perfect sense to do an EPQ. Both my DC did. DD didn't get into Oxford but said in fact it prepared her really well for independent study elsewhere.

I think, in DD's case, the EPQ was possibly the main thing that for her into Oxbridge because she did so much research for that and then, when she finished, it gave her an idea for another short essay which won an essay competition and then another essay as well as a development on a related theme which was put in a website magazine. So she described this whole process as a large part of the PS and how one thing led to another and in the interview this is what they talked about and the interview flew by. At the end, the guy said he was really interested and was off to read her work online. None of it had anything to do with the A-level curriculum, so I think it showed she was thinking independently beyond that and it turned out the essays were relevant to one or two of of the modules at the uni. So it was great for her, though it was a lot of work on top of the A-levels. She also got a lower offer at another uni (sorry, can't remember if it was Bristol or Bath) specifically because of the A* in the EPQ. So, if they are going to do one, make it relevant to the degree (but also original).

Oxford and Cambridge will not include EPQ in offers but they do now say somewhere on the websites that they welcome the EPQ and encourage students to undertake one if possible. However, they realise not all schools offer this, si will factor that in. Also, I don't think they would expect one on top of a fourth A-level (if a school insists on that instead of EPQ).

Other unis vary as to the importance of EPQ, but it is definitely becoming more recognised as valuable.

Hi

I didn’t just make that up.

I was a y13 student in 2017, the day before results day 45% of students in my year holding offers had an unconditional.

My brother has just finished y13, he has 8 friends. 7 are going to uni - 5 received unconditional results before results day.

They aren't that rare. So much so that uni’s have been told to cut down on it.

I've attached some research for you to read as you clearly havent looked into this.

www.officeforstudents.org.uk/media/6a75e526-2540-4b59-b021-9d179b410164/unconditional-offers-update_july-2020.pdf

I should say obviously relying on an unconditional offer isn't a good strategy, but for certain courses it is likely. DB’s friend is studying mechanical engineering with grades CEU.

I remembered I know one person where the EPQ made a difference and that was for oxford, the A at EPQ giving her a minor advantage. (she also had grades AAA plus an A from the AS year and an A in AS critical thinking)

For the very bright who need something to stand out I'm sure it has a use.

For the rest of us, a part time job, work experience or volunteering etc can also add value. To get into my HCP degree my years of voluntary work and extensive work experience helped me. It depends what your son wants to do

Those grades should be A * (A star)- don't know why it doesn't like it

For me, the skills covered in the EPQ, the planning, researching, synthesising, analysis, planning, personal organisation, referencing and source analysis mean that when they start university, they have a head-start on those who haven't done it.

But students taking A levels in geography, history and English literature cover all of those skills for their NEA. DD's geography NEA was around 6,000 words long. She did all of the above, including data collection and statistical analysis (and achieved the highest marks in her year). So I don't think students who are taking subjects that include an NEA need the extra workload of an EPQ.

I’d say if students are relying on an EPQ
goe interview discussion then they lack wider skills! Interviewers also want to know what you’re like as a person. Jobs, volunteering and travel are all more imp than a project. Your grades demonstrate your academic ability. Interviews are to see your personality and see if you’re suitable

That is not true for a university interview at all.

Your grades demonstrate your academic ability. Interviews are to see your personality and see if you’re suitable

This simply isn’t true. Universities don’t care about your personality.