Funding for academically excellent students from UK to study abroad

[mids2019]

Four out of 10 UK students are being rejected by elite universities mol.im/a/11110105 via dailym.ai/android.

If the above is true in the DM should we consider funding extremely good students squeezed out of Oxbridge to go to US universities?

We have always had a good system where wealth isn't a barrier to university access but increasingly universities are attracting overseas students with their fees but UK students may not have the financial means to reciprocate this arrangement.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

No she isn't.

I guess politicians should stay out of HE though

Exactly. Everything that comes out of her mouth is shameless populism. She’s even worse than Boris and his bloody bus.

She’s even worse than Boris and his bloody bus.

Being advised to go on telly and say your hobby was making model London buses was genius though.

Given that the tax payer still funds HE that's hardly realistic is it.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with HE being political, as long as decisions made are genuinely beneficial for all stakeholders, short and long term. Policy should not be made based on accumulating the greatest number of votes, be they from party members in a leadership campaign, or the electorate in a General election.

In fact the alternative to political involvement is no political involvement - a free market. Again disastrous. Particularly if you value arts and humanities and WP...

We used to have the option for UK students to study at great universities in the EU. Unfortunately we voted to take that away from them. Maybe look at that first?

Or perhaps politicians should get involved again and invest in HE properly, so that everyone can access an university education without having to take out loans or consider whether they'll be able to move out at 18 to study at an institution of their choice.

There are many countries that have always had free tuition for all students, including international (non-EU) ones. Not all 27 EU states offer this, but an awful lot of them do.

There are many countries that have always had free tuition for all students, including international (non-EU) ones. Not all 27 EU states offer this, but an awful lot of them do.

Erasmus provided living costs though, which are not accessible now if you study in Europe even if your fees are free/cheap.

Erasmus provided living costs though, which are not accessible now if you study in Europe even if your fees are free/cheap.

The Erasmus funding has been replaced by the Turing scheme, so living costs will still be subsided on an Exchange year.

The OP is talking about students who don't get on a university course to start with. They wouldn't have been magically eligible for Erasmus without being enrolled first.

The article she’s linked to is about how four out of ten students are being rejected by Oxbridge (a rather lower number of rejections than I would have expected). It’s not saying that they aren’t getting into other universities. Indeed, it is vanishingly unlikely that these students aren’t getting any offers. Four out of ten applicants not getting into Oxbridge and having to slum it at UCL or Durham is hardly something to be outraged about (though the Mail does like to try).

extremely good students squeezed out of Oxbridge to go to US universities

"squeezed out" of Oxford or Cambridge? No applicant is guaranteed or entitled to a university place anywhere. They are not "squeezed out"; they weren't selected. They are competitive universities to be accepted into.

I am going out on a limb and going to say yes in some exceptional instances. A relatively non affluent Oxbridge reject

How much do you actually know about university funding & costs in the UK and the US? Because your posts suggest that you know very little.

1. It is highly likely that of a talented student is interviewed for, but not offered, a place at either Oxford or Cambridge, she or he will have good offers from other equally excellent universities. (And in some disciplines, other universities are better places to study than Oxbridge)
2. If a UK student really cannot afford to study in the UK (even after receiving loans and bursaries and finding a part-time job), it is highly unlikely that they'll be able to afford a US college degree.
3. The UK education system is one of the best in the world, despite chronic underfunding over the last 15 years. No way should the tax payer be paying for UK nationals to study in the USA when there are so many excellent universities here, and while they remain underfunded.

@GrandSlamFinalee
It's not true that excellent American students who gain admission to top US universities can't afford to go if they have modest means.

There are 66 top US universities and liberal arts colleges which offer need blind admission and guarantee to meet the demonstrated financial need of all students to admitted.

Students who are admitted to these institutions are happy to take out the necessary loans to top up financial aid (which is basically a write off of some or all of the cost of attendance) because they will go on to lucrative careers. Loan repayment will be affordable.

Top American colleges and universities can afford to accept and retain the students they want because of enormous endowments.

Please read my post. I said 'outside of the UK and the US'. An excellent student from a modest family in the Czech Republic, Zambia or Bolivia who gets into Harvard is very, very unlikely to receive the sufficient financial support they need to go there, at least not at undergraduate level when they still haven't 'proven' themselves or published etc.

The top UK and US universities are, with a very small number of exceptions, simply inaccessible to students from other countries who are also exceptional and would deserve a place there. Spots are taken by international students who DO have the money, albeit might not be as exceptional. I studied at such an institution and was incredibly lucky to receive support. Now, especially since Brexit, there are not enough full scholarships for poorer international students who would deserve to attend. The kids going are still good, but some less rich ones are even better.

I don't know where they got their figures from, it's not a 60% acceptance rate from Oxbridge - last year there were 24,000 applications for 3300 places at Oxford - that's a 13.75% acceptance rate.

@GoodThinkingMax

I agree that there are equally good universities to Oxbridge but occasionally you will find someone try and argue they are better. I actually think if we accept your premise that there are equally good or better courses elsewhere it would help.

From a personal perspective I think the ability to pay should not be a barrier to any sort of education

How do we find higher education? We used to have free HE (for the student) but fees were introduced. Do we increase fees to combat the shortfall you mention? We should actually use more tax payer cash possibly to fund HE which would help WP but then the taxpayer may want more discretion in the way universities operate?

It's a bollocks article. I'd also bet my hat Mark Corver didn't provide that quote in the context they say.

But when did the DM stick to the truth when there was an opportunity for a bit of Jonny Foreigner bashing 🤷‍♀️

IME the biggest problem with admitting lots of international students is that the English tests are not rigorous enough. My masters was blighted by a group of Chinese students who turned up speaking very little English, spent the whole year together speaking Cantonese and were still asking the lecturers to explain the same terms at the end of the their term that they were asking at the start of the first. Their inability to speak or write English also made a farce of seminar presentations and joint working. I got a partial refund on my fees as so many of us complained about this. The Cambridge test is either not rigorous enough or they don't check identities carefully enough so that candidates can submit proxies to take it for them - which i could well believe.....

How do we find higher education? We used to have free HE (for the student) but fees were introduced. Do we increase fees to combat the shortfall you mention? We should actually use more tax payer cash possibly to fund HE which would help WP but then the taxpayer may want more discretion in the way universities operate?

You nudge the universities to set up endowment funds. Fundraising is the name of the game. American universities are not shy about asking graduates to contribute.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_endowment
Endowments listed in £ millions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment
Endowments listed in $ billions.

@GrandSlamFinalee that's not true either.

africanscholars.yale.edu/resources/colleges-universities-give-financial-aid-and-scholarships-international-students/united

www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/universities-that-offer-international-students-the-most-financial-aid

The US and the U.K. are culturally very different countries. U.K. universities do fundraise and do ask alumni for donations, but there is simply not the same culture of philanthropy in the U.K. (partly because taxation is much higher here) for universities to capitalise on.

The U.K. continues to have a massive brain drain in the direction of the top US universities. They rarely come back! It's not something that should be taken lightly that we lose a good chunk of our best and brightest to the US.

Truss's idea would narrow participation, not widen it. Not every students receiving an offer from Oxbridge has 3 or 4 A predicted grades. They deliberately offer AAA for humanities at Oxford so that they get the students who show potential, but haven't necessarily had to opportunity to display it at age 17 or 18. On my DD's first day they were told that their GCSE & A level results were now irrelevant as they all had the ability to obtain a 1st. She probably wouldn't have her place if Oxbridge had been forced to offer everyone who had 3 or 4 As an interview as grammar & private school applicants would have bumped her out of the way.