University of Sheffield and free speech

[ChristinaXYZ]

Free speech has become a real issue at lots of universities on lots of subjects. With my DDs A level results due next week I was horrified to read this on the University of Sheffield - forcing a staff member out for inviting the Equiano Project (founded by a black woman) to speak and for signing a letter in support of Prof Kathleen Stock. Basically allowing offended bullies to get their way.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/13/university-forces-diversity-adviser-supporting-bullied-professor/

Are there any alternative good university list that rank them by free speech because they all seem this useless at the moment.

If I am pay for DD to get through uni I expect her to be able to experience different ideas and to learn to argue, debate, and stand up for what she believes in and to also be able to admit that she has got things wrong sometimes too and to change her mind. What is the point of going otherwise?

Talking of free speech, what does your daughter want.

Sheffield, like lots of universities, has its noisy element. My DDs were not really interested in student politics or what lecturers thought about anything that wasn’t linked to what they were studying. All else is optional and not obligatory. It’s easily avoided.Or engaged in, if DD wants.

I didn’t see what you describe as a main reason to go to university.and didn’t give it any thought. I do see informed debate, however, as something everyone can engage in whether at university or not. I’m never sure why different ideas and arguing are the preserve of a university education? I’m capable of both without attending a university. DD advocates for a job. She’s a barrister but didn’t engage in student politics or debate very much at university. She’s still hugely capable at her job though!

Can DDs still have opinions? Of course. If it matters to her. She can debate with friends snd at societies. To many, it doesn’t matter who is invited and who isn’t regarding views on women. If your DD wants to be involved in such issues, and events, then she will be able to find them. Sheffield is a left wing city with, from what I see, strong views held by a vocal and active minority who are sometimes intolerant. However, Universities, and everyone, should stand up for freedom of ideas and not close down debate.

If I am pay for DD to get through uni I expect her to be able to experience different ideas and to learn to argue, debate, and stand up for what she believes in and to also be able to admit that she has got things wrong sometimes too and to change her mind. What is the point of going otherwise?

Does your DD not get to have a say in her future?

How is that “talking about free speech”?

My DD has Sheffield and Durham. There was an issue at Durham in December 2021 - which does not relate to your topic but was appalling. It’s one incident and the uni is really good so I think our DCs need to go to places with great courses and not worry about these odd incidents unless they want to protest and that’s entirely down to them not us.

Because this mother is stating what she wants but it's her daughter who will be going to university.

Yeah. What does your daughter want? It's her decision. She's an adult and it's her life.

Some posters are playing the man, not the ball here. University is meant to be where ideas can be explored and new ones discovered. Not where thought is oppressed.

Hi Op. I recently graduated from Manchester, and sadly this sort of thing exists at all universities, so she will experience it wherever she goes. The upside is that it is so Orwellian the silent majority of students know its all rubbish, so I honestly wouldn't worry.

My DSS has recently finished a course at Brighton and is blissfully unaware of the furore around Professor Stock. He seems mostly oblivious to the gender debate too which is interesting! But not the point of this thread...
Trouble is the noisy minorities are drowning out other voices and there does seem to be a culture of bullying disguised as virtuous behaviour in some workplaces.
I think that the Government is becoming more aware of the threats to free speech on campus and I would hope will be more pro-active, but our children attending and the parents funding this are not without power.
I'd check out the university website and see what they have to say and maybe email them with some questions? Twitter maybe...

I think that’s a very dated view of university. I cannot think of a single person who thought that was important. Most people I know wanted to learn about their subject. They formed and honed opinions post university and plenty of well informed people didn’t go at all. These issues are not what interests most students. DH as an engineer really wouldn’t get involved with exploring cultural dilemmas. Just wanted to design buildings safely. It’s politics and it suits some students on some courses who have time to give to it. . The majority couldn’t care less.

What matters is your child's subject education. I sent my children to a Christian school, they are not Christians. The school did not change their values.

What does your DD want to study?

@carefullycourageous
That’s the key question! If surrounded by shrill students who won’t listen to anyone else it’s hard work to remain positive. Also Sheffield is a good time city for many. The noisy minority are irksome but on mist courses they hardly exist and you ignore them!

Is it possible to show the full text of this?

I'm at university at the moment, mature student in my 40s. I have a non-binary individual in my seminar group and it has meant we skirt round gender issues when she is around (sorry, 'they'). Interestingly I thought it was just me being a grumpy old woman, but in conversations with other younger students, many of them think it's nonsensical, but don't want to say anything for fear of being 'unkind'.

It's frustrating as it's an Early Childhood degree, there are no men at all in our year's cohort (there was one but he dropped out) and I think that talking about sexist stereotypes is important e.g. childcare is low paid and majority female workforce, but the trans issue obscures this.

That's to all the witless wonders who think they can understand my relationship with my daughter from a post a free speech. Had any of you had the benefit of critical thought and critical reading at university you would have realised that there is no evidence for what you accuse me of whatsoever in my post. Did I say I would over-rule her? Jesus wept. I asked if there was a list so I can help her chose.

I want her to have the kind of university experience that I had where I learnt to think (and, not you to read critically!). I want this for her so she does not turn out like @FitAt50 or @tinplantpot or any of the rest of you. This will improve her life.

And as for @TizerorFizz - the idea that critical thinking and debate is an 'old fashioned' view of university... dear God.. I'll be laughing about that one all day. Or crying if really is true. What have we become...

Thank you for one of the more sensible responses @carefullycourageous I consider the critical thought debate to be part of the subject though. You can't get around that. University is not for people to sit around waiting to be filled with facts like the children in Hard Times.

I’m a Sheffield student. Critical thinking is very important there. It’s how you get the best grades in your assignments. It all seems to go out the window with anything to do with Gender Theory though.

I am not sure you’ll find any university that isn’t captured. If you do I’d love to know.

What is so righteous about being left wing at the moment, they are not supporting striking workers or womens rights

Critical thinking should be at the heart of academia whatever side of the gender debate you are. Some of the replies on this thread are ridiculous and depressing. Shame as this was a really good question op - I was interested in this too for my dd.

There is a big difference, in regard to the OP’s concerns, between an engineering course and many subjects in the humanities and social sciences, where issues around gender and sex are routinely studied. OP is quite right to want to know whether she is going to be funding a course on which staff (and, indeed, students) are expected to spout political orthodoxies and logical untruths or will be pushed out of the door, as has already happened in several institutions.

You can’t “learn your subject” in that kind of climate.

@GCAcademic
I do agree with you but the vast majority of students don’t study these subjects do they? My DD did MFL. DH did engineering at Sheffield. Do you really think their teaching was affected by a minority of views current at the time? Of course not. These issues at universities affect very few. The vast majority of lecturers are dedicated and don’t push any opinion.

I can do without a lecture@ChristinaXYZ . You are patronising and rude. I would suggest your DD gets a loan snd makes up her own mind about what course snd where.

You seem to be very rude about people who have differing views to you! I can assure you that nursing degrees, MFL degrees, engineering degrees, maths degrees, physics degrees, law degrees and similar really are about learning. Students get on with them in a full timetable. You cannot teach everyone to think critically and you are looking at a very narrow area of contention. Most engineers simply would not care but would want to analyse design challenges within an academic framework. They don’t need to think critically about gender issues. Thank God!! Other skills are required. Ones this country actually needs.

You can laugh all you like but I have a successful DD and DH and they have grown as individuals since university. Life is not a sprint in terms of critical thinking and maturity. I stand by what I said: the majority of students are not on courses where the personal views of lecturers make any difference to their courses at all. Neither does that imply they are incapable of critical thinking and you are very outdated if you think that’s the case.

I might also remind you that we had a tradition of polytechnics in this country where the degrees were very much designed for work. Do you really think those students were that bothered about gender arguments? You can sit around all day at some RG universities if you study politics (6 hours contact at Sheffield I think) and hone your critical thinking or you might go out boozing!

For those lurking on this thread with a genuine interest in education and free speech there is this which a friend IRL has forwarded to me which you may find interesting when discussing (for the hard of thinking: not bullying, note, just discussing!) university choices with your DS or DD.

www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/Academic-Freedom-in-Our-Universities.pdf

I note Sheffield unsurprisingly is on the most restricted list.

Sheffield Uni is where I went as it happens - it was probably an even more left wing city in the 80s. It still had free speech - not a left or right issue in itself surely? Heart breaking what has happened.

I dunno. I understand your views, but I can't help thinking you're being a bit over sensitive. Black students went to Oxford when it was accepted they would be racially discriminated against whilst there.

By 18 I would expect my kids to have their heads screwed on and be able to cope with different views.

I think you're worrying needlessly.

I work at a university and these gender ideology type issues are much much bigger than when I was at university 20 years ago, so not sure what bringing your DH's degree from the distant past has got to do with anything. It just takes one vocal trans or non-binary student in a seminar group to change everyone else's experience and have these kinds of issues shoved down people's throats no matter whether the other students want to engage with the gender ideology and rhetoric in the first place.

OP I would suggest that your DD checks out the SU pages from the universities she is thinking of applying to and checks the EDI pages. A lot of universities have started to leave the Stonewall program so those ones might be a good starting point.