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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

University of Sheffield and free speech

57 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 21:05

Free speech has become a real issue at lots of universities on lots of subjects. With my DDs A level results due next week I was horrified to read this on the University of Sheffield - forcing a staff member out for inviting the Equiano Project (founded by a black woman) to speak and for signing a letter in support of Prof Kathleen Stock. Basically allowing offended bullies to get their way.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/13/university-forces-diversity-adviser-supporting-bullied-professor/

Are there any alternative good university list that rank them by free speech because they all seem this useless at the moment.

If I am pay for DD to get through uni I expect her to be able to experience different ideas and to learn to argue, debate, and stand up for what she believes in and to also be able to admit that she has got things wrong sometimes too and to change her mind. What is the point of going otherwise?

OP posts:
GCAcademic · 14/08/2022 12:49

I do agree with you but the vast majority of students don’t study these subjects do they? My DD did MFL. DH did engineering at Sheffield. Do you really think their teaching was affected by a minority of views current at the time? Of course not. These issues at universities affect very few. The vast majority of lecturers are dedicated and don’t push any opinion.

At my university alone, thousands of students study humanities and social science subjects. The MFL students also study cultural and literature modules. It is hardly an issue that only affects 1% of students. My husband works at another university where one of his colleagues beligerently pursued a disciplinary case against a student for expressing the view that biological sex is real in a seminar. It didn’t get anywhere in the end but it was very unpleasant for the student while it lasted (which I expect was the whole point).

JocelynBurnell · 14/08/2022 13:30

Whatever about any limitations of free speech at the University of Sheffield, one thing is certain. ChristinaXYZ's DD will hear views on a far broader range of issues than she ever did at home.

ChristinaXYZ's posting history on mumsnet is a clear testament to this.

TizerorFizz · 14/08/2022 14:00

@JocelynBurnell
Oooh! Do tell!

@GCAcademic
I did not say it was 1%. It’s obviously more but quite often students can avoid gender issues by choosing the better options and no humanities student has to encounter these people. It’s avoidable and one students troubles are not indicative of a whole university. I don’t agree critical thinking is affected by the views of a minority. I don’t agree with them and students need a tense to avoid them if universities won’t deal with it. However freedom of speech works both ways I guess.,

GCAcademic · 14/08/2022 14:34

no humanities student has to encounter these people. It’s avoidable

I’m sorry, but I’m going to rely on my own current experience of teaching humanities students rather than the views of someone who has a husband who studied engineering many years ago. This stuff is everywhere if you study humanities. It is not avoidable. Many core theory and methodology modules include content on gender. And why should you have to avoid particular modules if you don’t want someone proselytising at you?

Hillsidehigh · 14/08/2022 14:40

Sheffield is a big, busy uni with a lot going on, stop focusing on things like this and let your daughter choose

GCAcademic · 14/08/2022 14:42

I agree that this should be the daughter’s choice. And the reality is that there is not much to differentiate universities on this issue.

TizerorFizz · 14/08/2022 16:05

You avoid option modules that you are not interested in. What subjects have compulsory modules on gender? I can think of some but plenty don’t. Maybe the students on these courses choose them because they cover gender issues?

The examples of family members is relevant. Thousands do similar courses today. These students do have similar attributes snd needs. Thousands of DC don’t study gender at all. It is avoidable by choosing a relevant course with modules that avoid such debate.

ResisterRex · 14/08/2022 16:14

It is avoidable by choosing a relevant course with modules that avoid such debate.

Let's hear it for internalised self-censorship and limitations on participation in public life!! 🍾

TizerorFizz · 14/08/2022 17:33

We don’t all want that type of participation in public life though do we? Some might. Most don’t. We are free to choose what we wish to engage with and what we do not. We don’t need to be hectored for making personal choices. I’m mystified as to why people don’t like football! They must have their reasons. But they are free to keep quiet if they wish on that subject. In fact on any subject!

I’m not saying people cannot discuss what they wish but others don’t have to listen or participate. Most of us are happy to keep some thoughts private and don’t feel the need to have a public life agreeing or disagreeing. If people do want to engage in any public discourse, they can. I don’t think that should lead to anyone being hounded out of their job though.

Needmoresleep · 14/08/2022 17:45

Tizer, your DD is at Bristol isn't she? I am surprised that she has managed to avoid the gender debate altogether as gender in language is an active debate in France.

It is also not just gender. There are a set of views/beliefs that it is difficult for an individual student to vary from. DD found the previous election with lots of "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" posts on student group chats and suggestions that you were fascist/phobic/racist/etc if you planned to vote anything else, quite depressing. It would also be difficult to take a stance on Palestine that deviates even slightly from the prevailing view. (And which must be quite alienating for Jewish students.) A friend of mine, who happens to be Head of a large department at the National University in a Muslim country, was visiting and DD launched into a series of questions about Islamic religious practice, and what constituted reasonable and unreasonable adjustments. The friend laughed. She was very used to similar questions from non Muslim colleagues in her own country. Most of the demands DD was concerned about (they do a lot of group working so try to be considerate of others' needs when scheduling meetings etc) probably, in her view, fell within the category of "trying it on". As a practicing Muslim she did not get the same requests.

It's probably good training, as similar issues will come up in workplaces. We all should be sensitive to, and take account of others' needs. Young people that I know try really hard to be fair and non discriminatory. At the same time there is an element of learning to be cautious with those who might push their rights aggressively. One example, though pre-lockdown, was a complaint that a group of students were not being sufficiently inclusive. The group decided to have an end of term Christmas lunch. As a nod to non pork/meat eaters, they decided on a vegetarian restaurant. However it served alcohol, and the view was that in order to be properly inclusive they should have found a halal restaurant that did not serve alcohol. The vegetarians then objected. They did not enjoy being somewhere where dead animals were being eaten. Why should their concerns not be considered. And inevitably some (very muted) mutterings about why people could not have a drink, given they were celebrating Christmas. The academic in charge handled it well, but it took time and caused a great deal of worry. I don't think they ever got their lunch.

But this is students reflecting views they see and hear, which come from our broader society. It would be much more difficult if right-think were being imposed by lecturers who not only taught you but marked your exams. It is worth doing some research about course content and staff within the department. I was about to use Prof Sally Hines as an example of someone you might want to avoid if you were remotely Gender Critical, but I just looked her up. "Professor of Sociology and Director of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at the Department of Sociological Studies at the University of Sheffield."

OP you have your answer.

GCAcademic · 14/08/2022 18:43

TizerorFizz · 14/08/2022 17:33

We don’t all want that type of participation in public life though do we? Some might. Most don’t. We are free to choose what we wish to engage with and what we do not. We don’t need to be hectored for making personal choices. I’m mystified as to why people don’t like football! They must have their reasons. But they are free to keep quiet if they wish on that subject. In fact on any subject!

I’m not saying people cannot discuss what they wish but others don’t have to listen or participate. Most of us are happy to keep some thoughts private and don’t feel the need to have a public life agreeing or disagreeing. If people do want to engage in any public discourse, they can. I don’t think that should lead to anyone being hounded out of their job though.

What about those who do want to engage with these issues but are attacked, hounded out and vilified for not thinking in the correct way? Or simply feel they have to censor themselves (which can be a very distressing experience)?

I assume that is what the OP has concerns about, and there are plenty of reasons to have those concerns.

TizerorFizz · 14/08/2022 19:20

I rather thought the op wanted DD to avoid such debate. Not join in. Of course some courses really can avoid topical debate. MFL certainly can. DD is no longer at uni but didn’t engage in SU or any political debates. She did avoid anything she didn’t want to do or listen to.If someone wants to engage, then they should. But it’s not obligatory.

I do actually agree with @Needmoresleep . I think I would avoid some courses at some universities. As you say, you can see which way Sheffield are going. A young man we know who is a recent grad avoided all of this though. Studied Politics. It’s definitely an issue if you cannot avoid these core subjects but many courses do. Choose carefully.

I think my DDs, in life, have avoided people not like them. Maybe that’s not what they should have done but they have. So they and their friends eat meat. They try and accommodate others but would not be friends with people who argue all the time and are just not ever going to be part of their tribe. DD organised a university ball and ran a society whose members went out for meals! . People joined in if they wanted to. It’s all optional. No doubt other students did their own thing but DD wasn’t invited.

My DN, currently at university doing a science, doesn’t get involved either. Nor any of our friends DCs. They really just study and socialize with people like them. They are happy and don’t feel intimidated. It’s just a skill in life to find your mates. You are not required to be shrill at university. Or at any stage of life but if you feel strongly, yes you do need an outlet. But that doesn’t mean being offensive to others who don’t agree with you or even bothering much with them.

ChristinaXYZ · 15/08/2022 19:37

The OP wanted her DD to be able to join any and all debates without repercussions. It is that simple.

DD hears a wide range of views at home (again, the assumptions ... astounding) not least because DH and I often have political disagreements without taking offence at each other or trying to get each other cancelled.

Interestingly when my DH was at uni he was taught politics by a very elderly retired Labour MP. He said the ex-MP was brilliant at supporting debates, really able to play devil's advocate for both sides, which showed everyone where the strengths and weaknesses in each argument where and allowed people to sometimes change their minds, sometimes not, as to how persuasive the arguments where. It is that that I fear is lacking now and that experience I would like her have the chance to have (obviously with her making the decision, seriously). Will she really be able to say what she thinks is my worry.

And do none of you want your kids to have the best university experience possible? Do you not discuss the pros and cons of different courses?

And as some people do get harrassed off campus and reported by the thought-police it is a worry. (the kind that go back through your postings to find 'wrong-think' like @JocelynBurnell has apparently done with me! Nothing seriously said about my question and no facts or evidence - just a sneer: 'wrong-think has been found'! Go and bully someone who cares what you think @JocelynBurnell !)

OP posts:
ChristinaXYZ · 15/08/2022 19:41

Thank you @Grad22 @GCAcademic and @JasmineIndigo food for thought.

OP posts:
SeasonFinale · 15/08/2022 19:44

RhinestoneCowgirl · 14/08/2022 11:14

I'm at university at the moment, mature student in my 40s. I have a non-binary individual in my seminar group and it has meant we skirt round gender issues when she is around (sorry, 'they'). Interestingly I thought it was just me being a grumpy old woman, but in conversations with other younger students, many of them think it's nonsensical, but don't want to say anything for fear of being 'unkind'.

It's frustrating as it's an Early Childhood degree, there are no men at all in our year's cohort (there was one but he dropped out) and I think that talking about sexist stereotypes is important e.g. childcare is low paid and majority female workforce, but the trans issue obscures this.

Wow! I hope you would show more empathy should you end up teaching a trans pupil.

JocelynBurnell · 15/08/2022 20:05

ChristinaXYZ
And as some people do get harrassed off campus and reported by the thought-police it is a worry. (the kind that go back through your postings to find 'wrong-think' like @JocelynBurnell has apparently done with me! Nothing seriously said about my question and no facts or evidence - just a sneer: 'wrong-think has been found'! Go and bully someone who cares what you think @JocelynBurnell !)

@ChristinaXYZ, you clearly have issues engaging in discussion and debate on this forum. (The irony!)

I merely pointed out that you only ever seem to post on a single issue on mumsnet.

TizerorFizz · 15/08/2022 20:48

@SeasonFinale
Its an early childhood degree. It’s not teaching.

If people want to engage in this debate then they will find really unkind people do too. So don’t join in. Avoid the courses that seem too controversial. Let’s be honest, it’s bad enough on MN but at least it’s anonymous!

niceduvet · 17/10/2022 01:57

Unfortunately woke gender ideology has become like a religion and is being whipped up to new heights by the unis. And no, I'm not going to put my preferred pronouns at the end of a work email. EVER!

Xenia · 17/10/2022 15:20

It is all pervasive - the one "correct" woke left view. I remember asking one son what would happen if he were not to toe the party line on a topic relevant to his BSc - he said he would be free to express it but the reading list had no books on it of that view. However you have to be a very brave student to offer the opposing views. Mind you as a member of the Federation of Conservative Students in 1980 I certainly did not feel the fuzzy warmth of love from most students back then many of whom would not let people speak (as that is what the left is like) so I am not sure it has changed in some respects.

Needmoresleep · 18/10/2022 10:58

Gender is one thing. The more delicate issue seems to be race, especially BLM and white privilege. No one wants to be on the receiving end of a complaint involving race, but lockdown, and the need for students to do a lot more organising of working groups etc, had them tiptoeing around the needs of Muslim students particularly during Ramandan. Prayer times were out obviously, as were mornings as Muslims eat early and then go back to bed, and more. In contrast East Asian students stuck in very different time zones seemed to have a rough time of it. No one seemed to grant them much consideration, even if they had to be up at 3.00am to to be able to contribute to discussions about the group project.

It can get silly. An affluent privately educated student telling her white peers that they had no way of understanding prejudice, as they benefitted from white privilege. A couple of working class Belfast girls looked her in the eye and said "really?".

TizerorFizz · 18/10/2022 15:15

Unfortunately that view is really widespread. The poorest of the poor whites are privileged even if all sorts of issues have been present in their lives. It’s almost seeing who trumps who with the most woe! The white people don’t feel privileged of course. It just leads to further divisions. Which isn’t healthy for anyone. Asian students are often excluded from such debates. They seem to not be blamed nor have sufficient complaints.

Kellie45 · 18/10/2022 15:21

You ought to know by now that the left-wing do not believe in free speech. They didn’t believe in it when I was at university and that was many years ago when anybody tried to speak against what they believed they were shouted down and threatened physically.
Now we get this tactic of the de-platforming anyone they don’t like. I can remember a guy who was lecturing in chemistry being the victim of a demonstration by these lunatics because he worked on biological weapons - the idiots hadn’t bothered to check that he was working on defending us against them. I’m afraid the leopard doesn’t change its spots and the left wing still do not believe in free speech

TizerorFizz · 18/10/2022 18:56

@Kellie45
I agree but why are they getting their way in our universities? My DDs were not remotely interested in this stuff at university. They didn’t do anything political or get involved with politics or left wing views. I know it’s not popular but I would keep quiet at university. Plenty of time to join a political party later or say your piece later. What you need from university is a degree. Not a megaphone.

Kellie45 · 18/10/2022 19:37

TizerorFizz · 18/10/2022 18:56

@Kellie45
I agree but why are they getting their way in our universities? My DDs were not remotely interested in this stuff at university. They didn’t do anything political or get involved with politics or left wing views. I know it’s not popular but I would keep quiet at university. Plenty of time to join a political party later or say your piece later. What you need from university is a degree. Not a megaphone.

The problem was at my university the left had a habit of closing the University down. They were a right bunch of plonkers with pictures on the wall of the murderers Lenin and Stalin and Mao. These were the heroes as they stepped into the cars provided by their capitalist fathers. Idiots!

TizerorFizz · 18/10/2022 19:46

@Kellie45
Does not happen now. I agree that one sided lecturers are somewhat irritation but of course they’ve researched their one sidedness! Best to avoid some subjects! A friends DC did politics at Sheffield without incident!