Where to do German and history degree?

[InDIYHell]

I'm trying to help DD and she thinks she has settled on a joint German and history degree (her 2 favourite a levels). Can anyone suggest what unis we should focus on that has a good reputation in both? Thanks!

Oxford, Bristol, UCL, Edinburgh, Nottingham, Manchester, Warwick, Birmingham Sheffield - loads offer this. What’s best depends on how her results are likely to go. Oxford require tests and interview. Look at their courses. Adding in German will make it easier to get a place as German students are far fewer than History ones. The universities want linguists!

Reputation for what? Subject, university or employability afterwards? Who is judging? There are league tables to look at which might help.,

Also check what kind of German degree it is. I'm going back a while (!) but when I did my German degree some unis (trad) focused on literature, others on language. Your dd may have a preference.

Also consider joint honours carefully- it's a lot more work than single honours (from my experience). I would probably advise my 18yo self to take single hons. My joint hons was like 3/4 plus 3/4.

But yay! that she wants to do German 😀😀

My DD did joint honours MFL at Bristol and a friend of hers did History and French at Warwick. All her friends at Bristol did joint honours with an MFL (or two) except one.

The point about joint honours is that employers know it’s hard work! They know students probably haven’t dossed! Especially with a language snd year abroad. I think it makes them more employable. Certainly DD and her friend have benefitted from working hard. I think it’s better prep for work than taking it easy, as is a literature and language course. These are usually found at the top universities for a reason. They even out the students who speak the language at home. Emphasis on language is not an even playing field. Introducing literature sorts out the all rounders and those who maybe have more to offer in the workplace where there is no emphasis on speaking a language, which is very many jobs!

The huge advantage of History and German would be the higher chance of getting in. German A level is now not taken by very many. Universities want to keep German departments open and like applicants who want to study it. Just applying for history is more competitive.

YH sure I was thinking just apply for single honours German tbh

I went to Bristol actually! My point about joint hons was that I had to spend a lot more time working so my degree class probably was lower (maybe not tho haha). The philosophy element of my degree was basically three exams and two long assessed essays versus four exams and three essays for single hons phi. Just seems a bit unfair (as it did at the time tbh). Not sure it made me any more employable either.

I'm not saying people need to look for the easiest option at uni at all; but certainly consider single vs joint hons and what is involved. It certainly isn't half plus half.

Thanks for your insight, is much appreciated. DD isn't oxbridge material, she got an A in her German mock but messed up her history and got a B ( but she normally is at least an A).

I'm thinking that as she doesn't know what she wants to do for a career the most 'employable' uni would be best. I really like the look of Warwick and think it would suit her. Bristol want AAA so might be a stretch.

I'm confused re. Nottingham - they rank highly for employers but not elsewhere. Does anyone know if it's just based on specific subjects? They have a lower average offer so could be good for a backup?

Lancaster rates highly for German - does anyone know why?

DD doesn't seem to mind working hard so I'll suggest she reads the course details and she can take it from there. She really fancies a year in Germany and I'm thinking that would be good for her CV. I'm obviously keen that she decides for herself but she's a bit overwhelmed with options so I said I'd try and help whittle if down!

I've just had a dip check and of course you're all correct - German offers (without history) are typically a grade lower. Would a German only degree be less "employable " than German and history though? That's my main concern.

As part of a trad German degree there would be history modules, but if she wanted to do joint honours I think it is a great combination. A relative did German at Lancaster years ago, and has done very well for himself. Sheffield is good for both. Exeter was v good for German when I looked.

German is a fab degree and German history is fascinating!

I don't think German only would be less employable at all. They are both academic, essay based degrees.

Ps I wouldn't go for Bristol. They have no need to ask such high grades they just know they will get lots who didn't get into Oxbridge so do it anyway.

I agree with @DorritLittle a single hons German degree is just as useful as joint hons; unless you are planning to teach history tbf there is no employment related benefit to history being added. A good arts degree is great for lots of things and German has the benefit of being unusual (and also desired by employers).

Have a look at Southampton: www.southampton.ac.uk/courses/german-history-degree-ba Quite a lot of students take combined degrees there (usually, but not always a language and another humanity). Avenue Campus is lovely and only a 5 minute walk from the main campus.

If she was willing to go to a Scottish uni the four year degree is good for joint honours as there is more scope for chopping and changing, ie. Starting joint and dropping to single or vice versa, even adding in another language ab initio.

Another thought OP, from my own experience but still valid: while you are abroad in your third year, everyone you know in history (apart from anyone else who also combines it with a language) will graduate and leave.

When you return for your fourth year, the only people you will know are other linguists. Obvs that's true for anyone studying MFL, but it's more of an issue IMO if you combine it with a three-year course.

When I did my fourth year, all the phi students (apart from the other 3 ppl who, like me, did it with a langyage) were people I had never met. Yr 2 and 3 were mixed together at my uni for phi, but those with me in my Yr 2 had left. It's not a massive deal but it's worth being aware of.

Bear in mind that languages departments are in decline. I’ve heard that Birmingham’s German numbers are very low…

Lancaster does a lot of joint degrees and has an excellent reputation for languages and history. Might be worth looking at.

When you return for your fourth year, the only people you will know are other linguists.

Surely this depends on who your friends were in first and second year? DD is about to go into her 4th year (IR with French at Birmingham) and her housemates will include someone who did a year abroad in the same city, and one of her 1st year flatmates, a 2nd year housemate, doing a completely different course, but who did an industrial placement last year.

DH studied German and history at Birmingham and now works in NL and we live in Germany. He's had no problems employment wise, though doesn't work in a history related field, but obviously the German side has been used lots as we've lived over here since 2008.

I’d just do German. A German course will have modules in history. It’ll be a better way to get your German up to scratch, too. It’s easier to get on to a German course, as entry levels are lower.

Here you go , OP

www.lancaster.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/german-studies-and-history-ba-hons-rv21/#overview

@InDIYHell
I don’t agree with the others. History snd German says far more about you then just German. Employers do know it’s harder work and you have coped with that. You would also be more widely read and have slightly different skills to the single hons linguists. History leads to all sorts of jobs from the best universities snd when mixed with German it says the student has multiple skills. Single hons in any language is a bit narrow and German history is narrow too! That’s surely no substitute for a full History curriculum and options?

Bristol has always been competitive for History. They will almost certainly get students with the required grades and not go into clearing. DD has friends that did History at Bristol and they have very decent careers.

Nottingham is liked by employers and is definitely worth considering, as is Exeter and Lancaster. If she needs a AAB offer though you might have to trawl through universities but some will actively want German students.

I also think careers are down to what the student wants. DDs friends who got good jobs were single minded! They knew what they wanted and got work experience to put themselves in the best position. They got involved in societies and had excellent cvs. They researched how to get into their field of work. The best universities have decent careers services and careers fairs. Go and find out what’s available. History grads really don’t just go snd teach! And linguists don’t just do translation!

Linguists need to make friends with anyone doing an integrated masters degree. Any 4 year degree will do!!! Keep in touch during the year abroad!

Yes of course you can and no doubt will know lots of people. What I meant was that the only people who were on the course with you, or in your year with you in your second year, that are still there in year 4, will be those who also took a year abroad (or a placement year of course – not a thing at my uni). That’s IME more of an issue if you do a subject like history alongside your MFL, so the historians you knew in yr 2 will have left when you are in yr 4/3. I was friendly with lots of people on my phi course, along with random engineers, historians, English specialists; they had all left when I came back from Germany, and all the people who were still there were living with their yr 3 housemates. I lived with a random mix of ppl in my fourth year and it was good actually. It’s just something to bear in mind. Obv if your friendship group is based round, say, an interest rather than your course this will not be such an issue. But it is nice to see a friendly face in a lecture hall.

History grads really don’t just go and teach! And linguists don’t just do translation! to be fair @TizerorFizz I don’t think I or anyone else said that. I said that history per se is not needed for a career – eg if you want to go into law and do a conversion course, German is just as relevant (or not); careers done by history grads are pretty much open to MFL grads as well. apart from teaching history.

MFL grads certainly very very rarely IME go into translation. I heartily agree tho about keeping in touch with other students when on your year abroad. This is a lot easier now that when I was a student
Anyway, hopefully some helpful thoughts for your DD OP.

Well teaching isn’t for most history grads and translation isn’t for most linguists! I agree! History is great prep for law but you need a plan if you want to go down that route as it’s ultra competitive. DD did it and is a barrister but that’s not for everyone. I would still say joint honours is best though for linguists. It gives more options and demonstrates breadth of study and juggling!

DS at Birmingham doing ML - German plus an ab initio language plus Translation Studies, just about to go into his second year. He says German faculty perfectly good size, very slightly smaller than Spanish but only very slightly. His ab initio is very niche and tiny (there are just four of them but the numbers are made up on other courses such as Business Studies with this language). Given in the year he took his A levels only about 2,000 candidates did German A level in the UK, I fear the decline in sizes of German departments is a bit of a nightmare for all ML faculties.

He did a very good event put on at the German Embassy before Covid struck which was about jobs you could do with German which would work equally well with German and History. All the German banks are crying out for English German speakers, as are the management schemes at Lidl and Aldi and other German companies such as some of the drug companies. Bloomberg also very keen to get English German speakers too. With History as well I'd think she'd be very employable indeed, OP.

It's crazy (to me) that German is in decline when it's such a brill country, an attractive place to live and get a job and a major economic power. Languages go through trends though I guess. When my DM went to Uni (to study German!) Russian was trendy. Now it is Spanish and Chinese.

Sorry, Mandarin...