Which is "more work" - IB or 4 A-levels?

[sevenstar]

Hi, this is a bit premature as DD only in Year 8, but at her school they offer the following "routes" in the 6th form -

1. 4 or 5 (!?!) A-levels plus an EPQ with the option to drop one A-level at the end of Year 12 (what is the point of that)?

2. The IB?

I have 2 questions really -

1. What is the point of doing 4 or even 5 A-levels, (unless one is FM or a language they are semi-fluent in anyway). I heard unis only look at your best three anyway, so surely better to focus on getting three A, rather than two A and two As (for instance)?

2. Is aiming for 45/45 at IB really the equivalent of five A* at A-level?

I could be missing something, but this all sounds too much to me. But which would be worse - 4 A-levels + EPQ or the IB? Thankyou!

Sorry, that should read three A star rather than 2 A star and two A

IB is the same as three A levels as far as I can tell from the mix of what my friend's kids did. Most kids in our school did the EPQ no matter if they did A levels or IB.
Our school also actively discouraged four A levels unless one was FM. There is no point snd I'd ask the school their reasoning.
My daughter is doing three plus EPQ. Works plenty hard already.

Depends on the A levels. And do just beware of ‘they only look at the top three’ if you’re aiming really high and you’re at a selective school that offers four and you’re up against other candidates with four Astars it might begin to matter.

She would probably not be doing Maths / FM or sciences (unless a drastic change happens)! Probably it would be something like English, Philosophy, History, Geography... Those kind 'essay heavy' subjects plus maybe a language.

easyday - Yes I agree as my elder DD was in a similar school to this DD (as in GCSE / A-level results), but they actively discouraged 4 A-levels unless one was FM or a semi/native language. The standard there was 3 A-levels and an EPQ and this was fine for the top unis.

But yes, DelurkingAJ, when schools offer 4/5 A-levels, they are basically obliged to do that or they would be contextualised as 'underperforming' in the context of their school. Crazy!

What is the point of doing 4 or even 5 A-levels, (unless one is FM or a language they are semi-fluent in anyway). I heard unis only look at your best three anyway, so surely better to focus on getting three A, rather than two A and two As (for instance)?
Presumably this school is selective and has the ethos that its pupils would better ‘stretched’ by a Y12 of 4-5 A levels. IMO it is worth considering what happens at sixth form when choosing a secondary school in case it is out of step with your expectations. They may well change though by the time your DD gets to Y12.
I take the view that if a student can cope, a year of a 4th A level has the advantage that it keeps choices open longer before focusing on 3. Plus, to state the obvious, learning can be beneficial without acquisition of a certificate.

My DS is doing 4 A Levels but he doesn’t have to do the EPQ at his school unless you are doing 3 A Levels. He won’t be dropping A Level either.

DD has just finished IB and DS1 took 4 A Levels. IB is tough and requires a lot more work during the course because of all the coursework and other bits and pieces. If anything I'd say IB is harder that 4 A Levels until the final exams. But IB is definitely harder than 3 A Levels.

You'll hear lots of contrasting views on the 'value' of 4 A Levels, all I can say is that it suited and stretched DS1. He did well and is just finishing his 2nd year at Oxford. DS2 is also taking 4 and is on track to do well.

I think it depends on your strengths.
Personally, I did pretty well at A level, but with a pretty narrow range of subjects. I would absolutly have flunked IB due to the breadth required.

I also understand that A levels you can sometimes pull it out if the bag even if you dont fave tge right work ethic for the first year, and with IB that is much harder to achieve.

Having viewed several sixth forms earlier this year, they all recommended only 3 A levels with an EPQ. The only time a fourth A level is accepted is doing Further Maths along with Maths and Physics (and another subject).
I don't know how this compares with IB as it is not on offer in any local state schools.

Sorry if this is a daft question, but is IB mainly assessed through coursework? How much depends on the final exams?

IB coursework percentage depended on the subject, in my DC's case. Think it was 20% for most subjects, and 40% or more for English (but that was SL English - not sure about HL. French might have been a higher % too). And the TOK and EE is 3 points out of 45 that's in the bag before exams as well. You have to be much more organised for IB than you need to be for A levels. I'd choose IB every time, though - still pissed off it wasn't around in my day.

Hello, OP -

Speaking as a former Russell Group admissions tutor, I also question the policy of your DD’s school. I think they are handicapping their pupils. Three A Levels plus an EPQ is plenty, even for Oxbridge where substantive supracurriculars, entrance exams and the interview will then be the determining factors. You are correct that three A stars trump two A stars and two A’s.

If you list four A levels some universities - e.g. Imperial, by reputation - will make you an offer on all four, whilst they are perfectly happy to make other applicants offers on three.

I agree that the IB requires greater effort month on month. I think it probably makes for a more well educated citizenry and better trains students in the work habits they will need at university. I prefer it. I won’t give my School’s current offer here, but it is higher than AAA and I have never heard of an applicant with an IB mark of 45. Honestly not sure how realistic a goal that is?

@sendsummer is right, of course, about learning for its own sake. I think that is better reflected in the IB philosophy and the EPQ than in overextending pupils’ A Level requirements.

@poetryandwine - 45 in IB is rare. Globally 1% of candidates achieve 44 or 45. Not sure what the 3 or 4 A star equivalent % would be.

Thanks everyone. I totally agree. I guess there is a chance they may drop the 4 A-level policy for the reasons stated by @poetryandwine. At the other DD's school, they used to have them doing 4 A-levels but then did some kind of research across unis and all the unis apparently indicated an EPQ would be preferable to a fourth A-level. So it was all change. In the free periods, they had a Diploma programme of term-long courses and voluntary work which students did instead. This school did not offer IB though.

I think this school have stuck to 4/5 A-levels to fit in with IB timetabling maybe? They don't want the A-level students with free periods that IB students wouldn't have and maybe it's too much to organise a programme to go alongside 3 A-levels, as well as running the IB.

Anyway, anything could happen in a few years. Apparently there is talk of abandoning the GCSEs?

IB each subject is up to 7 marks. 45 would be equivalent of Astar in 3 a levels and 3 as levels. It does happen at NLCS and Godolphin (which are probably where OPs dd is). But that includes 2 sections of maths/science (potentially 3 if they’ve swapped the creative)…which is vastly more doable than 4/5 essay subjects.

being brutal OP you would be batshit crazy to let your dd do 5 essay subjects - or even 4. Most schools only allow 4 when one is FM for a very good reason. And those that do 5 often are maths in year 12. There just isn’t time to do school work plus homework (10 hours per subject is what I’ve heard) and do anything else…your dd needs a life as well.

My ds achieved 43 in the IB. The IB is considerably more work than three a levels as you also need to complete the CAS requirements and the extended essay. You need to be extremely well organised and it is impossible to cram and leave everything to the last minute. There is a coursework element to each subject, but I think maximum 20%. My dd is taking 4 a levels: maths, further maths, chem and bio and the only students taking 4 are the ones taking FM

Starting with just 3 A levels is very risky - I hear of so many students getting a term in and then deciding one of their choices wasn't the right one.... giving up maths to take up something like History after a term is far from ideal. That's why lots of schools like students to start with 4......

FWIW DS1 started with 4 and gave up one after a year (which was a mistake with hindsight). He didn't do an EPQ as, to the best of my knowledge, no one does them at his old school. I think it's a disadvantage if you "only" do 3 A levels as you are then competing for university places with people with 3 A levels and an EPQ, or 4 A levels.

DD has just done 4 A levels. Maths, Biology, Chemistry and Physics. Very doable, although it left her with no free periods. She knows that the transition to uni (Medicine) will be much easier for her than for other students who did 3 A levels.

I did the IB back in the 80s. I think if you are gifted at languages (and many kids who do it are), it's not much harder than 3 A levels. I did English, French and Spanish as 3 of my subjects....... the latter 2 require little effort for bilingual students. If you aren't language focussed, it's akin to the workload of 4 A levels.

The IB is a broader and better course as it produces much "rounder" students.

25% of A level students get 3 A or A* or more.

25% of IB students get 39 or higher, less than 2% get 45.

ibo.org/globalassets/programme-information/dp/diploma-programme-final-statistical-bulletin-may-2021-assessment-session..pdf

lginform.local.gov.uk/reports/lgastandard?mod-metric=9557&mod-area=E06000031&mod-group=AllSingleTierAndCountyLaInCountry_England&mod-type=namedComparisonGroup

I thought this may be of interest to some of you.

The Scottish equivalent to an A level is an advanced higher. Some may argue it’s a little more demanding as an A grade is 56 UCAS (same as and A star at A level).

A grades are split into bands - A1 and A2. There is no differentiation in UCAS points between the bands, so an A1 could be regarded as higher than an A star at A level. Advanced highers involve independent learning and projects, similar to the first year at uni (in Scotland).

Not all schools offer a full diet of advanced highers as the gold standard entry into a Scottish uni is 5 highers in one sitting. Students may attend uni after highers or continue another year and study more highers and/or advanced highers. If students stay on another year to study advanced highers, they will be 17/18 when they start uni, as opposed to 16/17 if they attend uni after taking only highers.

These stats are interesting as only 12807 students took any number of advanced highers in Scotland in 2019. 188 students took four advanced highers and 70 of these got 4 As. Out of these only 16 achieved four A1s which is the top 0.1%.

Thank you,@HoneyMobster. FWIW, I was rooting around on the web to get a sense of standards. A site I won’t name because I can’t assess it says Harvard typically requires a minimum of 42 IB points for admission. I am guessing that is within the top 5%. As IB pupils are- self selected very strong cohort, that seems a very high standard.

@MidLifeCrisis007 , DH shares your view that starting with an extra A level is good insurance against hating one. At minimum, the well chosen partial fourth can feed the other three (That may be how he ended up with four ALs.) Having been educated abroad I find it hard to believe you won’t know your own mind better than this by age 16 but I am prepared to accept this as a genuine cultural difference.

@Aurea, those statistics are most interesting. It looks like Scotland is holding the line on grade inflation, good on you! It did occur to me that the well documented grade inflation in England (thank you, @ChateauMargaux) might be one reason for the trend to four A Levels.

The thing I like about IB (and looks to be the same for Scottish Advanced Highers) is that it allows high achievers to differentiate themselves.

With things the way they are 3 x A star or even 4x A star at A Level isn't that unusual so it makes it harder for competitive universities to differentiate between applicants. DD has just got 44 in IB and I'm delighted for her as it's something quite special.

If you list four A levels some universities - e.g. Imperial, by reputation - will make you an offer on all four, whilst they are perfectly happy to make other applicants offers on three.

But that offer is lower! So instead of requiring 3 A stars, they require only one A star and 3 As.

Starting with just 3 A levels is very risky

I agree.

Doing 4 A levels is also excellent preparation for a University degree, assuming of course you enjoy all 4 subjects and do well in them.

I went to a state college which offered IB and I don’t think they could compete with International schools where all pupils study IB. In addition to having typically smaller classes and resources - both physical and knowledge to support the curriculum.

I did okay, but with hindsight would have just done a levels. It felt like we had a lot more work and as far as I can recall no one in the cohort had a native language they could use for their second language.

The college no longer offer IB as an option and only did so for about 5 years.

Congratulations to your DD, @HoneyMobster

Here is a genuine question for you all based on the fact that I was educated abroad. That gives me a different perspective. For context, I’m ordinarily in favour of students following their own interests to a fairly large extent.

To all who are saying that three AL’s is risky, this is something I’ve not picked up on from any number of interviews with our applicants and years of relationship building with my personal tutees. The obvious answer is ‘in case you hate one’, but is that outcome not more likely if you perceive that the option exists? (I would always favour a short period at the beginning of Y12 when you can ‘shop and swap’ amongst various choices.)

I am sure that once in a great while you get a genuine misfit between pupil and teacher, but happily that teacher is not marking the exam. If one AL is just a bit less sexy than the others, what’s really wrong with that?

Part of my thinking is that the EPQ can be so valuable - as the poll conducted by @sevenstar ‘s elder DD’s school revealed - that I would like to see more AL pupils doing one. And even for many of the brightest, four AL’s (which those who fully enjoy Y12 are likely to end up with) plus an EPQ can be too much. I know some can manage it, but it is a question of personality as much as intellect.

TIA

@pinklavenders the Imperial offer is not always so much lower, to my certain knowledge. Imperial is a fabulous institution but its offers do provide a lively source of discussion.