Which is "more work" - IB or 4 A-levels?

[sevenstar]

Hi, this is a bit premature as DD only in Year 8, but at her school they offer the following "routes" in the 6th form -

1. 4 or 5 (!?!) A-levels plus an EPQ with the option to drop one A-level at the end of Year 12 (what is the point of that)?

2. The IB?

I have 2 questions really -

1. What is the point of doing 4 or even 5 A-levels, (unless one is FM or a language they are semi-fluent in anyway). I heard unis only look at your best three anyway, so surely better to focus on getting three A, rather than two A and two As (for instance)?

2. Is aiming for 45/45 at IB really the equivalent of five A* at A-level?

I could be missing something, but this all sounds too much to me. But which would be worse - 4 A-levels + EPQ or the IB? Thankyou!

@pinklavenders the Imperial offer is not always so much lower, to my certain knowledge. Imperial is a fabulous institution but its offers do provide a lively source of discussion.

Well, it certainly is this year!

Surely it depends on the degree programme? Anyway, good luck to the offer holders!

Yes, of course, but I'm just sharing the experience of my dc who got an offer based on 4 Alevels from Imperial this year.

Both my DC took 3 A Levels + EPQ, it gave time to explore other interests both extra curricula, such as Explorers, sport, music ,and also "super-curricula" ie reading beyond the syllabus, entering competitions.

The were at a decent grammar school for 6th form where the policy has switched about 3 years ago from 4 to 3 A Levels + EPQ even for the brighter students unless you are doing FM or a language you are bilingual in.

All kids differ but it was positive for my two giving the time to study for the additional Oxford exams - from what they said - it was the extra reading and EPQ research that helped in the interviews.

Sometimes less is more... that said IB sounds like an amazing curriculum - just not on offer for us.

It is a great qualification @Juja - we've been very fortunate in that our school offers both A Levels and IB. That meant DS1 and DS2 could choose A Levels and DD could choose IB. IB isn't for everyone but if it's right for the student it's great.

DD is going on to do Medicine but is a great linguist and did very well in her French SL and really enjoyed studying English in Sixth Form.

DD took 4 levels & dropped one at the end of Yr 12. At the start of Year 12, she thought she might drop one subject but it turned out to be another that she dropped. She was given an offer based on her 3 remaining choices and is now at Oxford. The test and interview were much more important than the grades, to be honest. I think the grades are taken as given - all students at Oxford have the same (course dependent) as do so many who don’t get in. They didn’t ask for 4 and she wasn’t disadvantaged compared to others.

The UCAS points tariff means that IB attracts as many points as 3 A levels, 3 AS levels and an EPQ. So a perfect 45 is points-wise around the same as 5 A*s at A level. Only 0.3% of candidates achieved 45 in 2019.
In terms of % of cohort, around 29% of A level students achieved AAA or better in 2019. The equivalent IB score achieved by around 30% of the IB cohort is around 34 . Similarly, around 3% of A level candidates achieved 3 A-stars, close to the 3.3% who get 42 or above in IB ( stats ). The cohorts may not be of equal ability, but this does raise a few questions. Equating by % of cohort would suggest AAA = 34, but AAA attracts UCAS points of 144 whereas 34 in IB attracts around 212 - far more. So either the people at UCAS know the IB is harder and taken by a more able cohort, or UCAS are being overly generous with the points for IB (but why would they?).
Looking at what universities demand at A level and IB, e.g. Cambridge will typically ask for 2 Astar + A or Astar + AA whereas they ask for 42 at IB. i.e. the typical offers are higher for IB than A level in that they equate to (far) more UCAS points and are achieved by a lower % of the cohort.

IB is a superior qualification to A levels: every serious review of secondary education since the Thatcher era has recommended we abandon A levels and move to something like it. A further advantage is that, at least until COVID, it was entirely immune to the grade inflation that undermined the credibility of A levels. It suits all-rounders particularly well.
Someone with a less balanced profile, i.e. strong on STEM but weak on languages or vice versa may achieve better with A levels. One group this has implications for is those heading for physical science / maths degrees. You can't do the equivalent of double maths with IB (further maths previously existed but has been phased out). Nor can you do all 3 sciences as part of the diploma (2 can be included but the third would have to be stand-alone). This makes it harder to specialize. One could argue that is the whole point of IB, but UK 16+ and tertiary education are so used to premature specialisation that universities effectively penalise those offering the breadth of IB by demanding more stringent grades for IB than they accept for A level.
I've heard anecdotal evidence that a few very selective schools, e.g. KCS, switched entirely to IB, then partially switched back to offer IB and A level side-by-side, one reason being that IB, while great for breadth, did not allow those heading for maths degrees to compete on a level playing field with A level students doing e.g. double maths and physics, who can afford to devote their entire efforts to two closely related subjects rather than spreading themselves comparatively thinly over six. In short, A levels promote and reward premature specialisation, but that's what some UK universities seem to want, at least in STEM/maths.

Brilliant post @piisnot3 , really informative. Interesting to know.

There are also discrepancies between universities, in that universities asking for the same A level grades for a given course may ask for significantly different IB points. e.g. for maths, the standard A level offers for Durham and Kings are almost identical, whereas there's a 3 point difference for IB (Durham : 38, Kings 35); this is a significant difference since only 13% of IB students achieve 38+ whereas 25% achieve 35+.
One possible interpretation is that Kings has far more international students, is more familiar with IB, and has pitched its A level and IB offers to be consistent, whereas the IB requirements for Durham are anomalously high, perhaps because they have far fewer international applicants and don't understand the IB.

Thank you, @piisnot3. This is both interesting and useful. I must confess that my School is one that has higher IB standards than AL standards according to your analysis of UCAS tariff points. I no longer do admissions but I think it is worth following up.

I agree that IB is hard for pupils with focused talents and I don’t want to lose them. I am not sure what one can do about that. But I was able to compare the Higher Level Maths exam with the 2019 Maths AL.

The IB exam is substantially more sophisticated. Virtually all of the questions require pupils to move between equivalent concepts fluently or solve for an unusual quantity, etc. Only the hardest AL questions require this type of thing: it is clearly meant to differentiate amongst the strongest pupils. The IB is more like a university level exam, though I would not be surprised if the AL requires more computational stamina. IMO the IB Higher Level Maths exam looks like a very good alternative to the Maths AL, and even contains a few topics from FM and beyond. My understanding from DH, a maths professor, is that you do it all again at uni anyway. Very fast!

@poetryandwine that also agrees with what I've heard/read. i.e. higher IB maths is pitched somewhat above A level single maths (but not nearly as high as A level further), and when it still existed IB further maths was pitched somewhat above A level further. The main difference being the difficulty of the questions and the depth of understanding required to answer them, not the amount of content on the syllabus.

I've also heard re: further maths that you "do it all again, very fast". But there was a thread on here recently in which several posters stated that coming in with single maths to the "further maths at high speed" experience, they couldn't keep up, and it destroyed their confidence.

Really good post @piisnot3 - you are spot on about HL maths. Really challenging.

I sat 4 A levels and the baccalaureate
(I only got 2 A levels in the end and that was enough to get me into my first choice of university in France 🤔 ). I found the A levels a LOT easier than the bac.

Yes, @piisnot3. I am one who urges pupils to takes FM when recommended because of the self confidence issue. No strictly pedagogical reason. My subject is maths intensive, we recommend FM, and I have seen it play out frequently.

But I wonder whether the IB philosophy confers any advantage? You touch on a number of FM topics and you do ‘learn to learn’ quite effectively if you can do the HL Maths exam to a high standard.

Thank you very much for some really useful information.

Thankyou piisnot3 and everyone else for some really interesting info.

Based on all this, I have a feeling DD will stick to A-levels! If the IB is equivalent to three A-levels and three AS - wow is all I can say!

On the subject of UCAS points and how different unis calibrate these, my elder one is at Cambridge and I remember her having to send them copies, not just of her A-level and EPQ certificates, but also her ABRSM certificates and her LAMDA one. A Grade 8 at these is apparently 30 UCAS points (if I remember rightly). Music and drama have nothing to do with her degree and certainly would never be part of offer conditions. But I do have to wonder if they factor in any additional UCAS points unofficially? Also they even wanted the D of E certificate. When I saw a list of all the subject combos and grades for people on the course (this was for a different year's cohort), people's music qualifications or D of E were listed in among their A-levels or IB. I was surprised to see that to be honest.

I have the same dilemma for my youngest Dd between A levels and IB. She is starting her GCSEs this September. Really useful information given so far. She would like to do humanities for A levels and wants to do history in university.
Part of me feels that give her a broad education which will be good for her in the long run but this does come with disadvantage of universities setting really high IB score for entry.

@sevenstar - this is the first time I am hearing about all the extra curricular activities given importance in Cambridge. Posters who have children at oxbridge have always insisted that it is only supra curricular activities that matter.

I am not sure my Dd would be keen to apply to oxbridge, prefers London so far. Her elder sister is in a London university and is having a fabulous time as well as a really good education.

ProfessorLayton1 - yes, I was surprised to see things like music qualifications and D of E listed alongside A-levels in their records. I had also heard that extra-curricular are irrelevant to Oxbridge unless directly related to the subject they are applying for. Certainly, none of this was mentioned in her PS. But maybe anything with UCAS points just gets listed as a matter if process? I don't know? But if UCAS points do count, a high score in the IB carries more points than three A-levels and an EPQ. Thanks to pps for explaining this.

Excellent post from @piisnot3. And for anyone interested in more views, there was a similar thread at the end of last year here: www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4401299-IB-or-A-Levels?page=1

But if UCAS points do count,
UCAS points only count to provide university data, not for selection with regards Oxbridge and similar most competitive universities

@carelessdad - thank you.

Having just been through the application process with IB - the UCAS points allocation does not seem to be the basis for offers.

Courses requiring AAA for AL are either 36 or 37 and 666 in higher level subjects. Realistically, those candidates getting 666 in their higher subjects, also get 666 in their standards and 2 out of 3 in the Extended Essay and Theory of Knowledge submissions. The hurdle is 666 in the higher level papers -- and that hurdle is deemed equivalent to AAA in AL - the standard level papers and the additional essays seem to be almost not of interest to the admissions process. Higher offers requiring A* are likely to require 7 at higher level in IB.

In fact, if you compare UCAS points - AL A* is the same as IB HL 7 and AL A is the same as IB HL 6.

As regards which is the 'better' qualification - it depends on the subject and the course. Most UK university courses are designed to follow on from A levels - therefore not expecting a wider range of study or more essay experience as offered by the IB, though these can be of benefit. I think that A levels might be more in depth in individual subjects, but Engineering or Maths Students who have IB HL Maths and Physics find themselves well prepared, these are incredibly intense IB options but there are strategies to reduce the workload in other areas through careful subject choice.

I found this report - which seems to suggest that IB students do better than A Level students at university. Not something I have seen any quality data on.

www.ibo.org/contentassets/d74675437b4f4ab38312702599a432f1/hesa_final_report.pdf - caveat - it is a report that combines data from the IB organisation and the Higher Education Statistics Agency so there may be some cherry picking involved...

I wonder if the request for music etc certificates is just to check people aren’t exaggerating on their PS?

DS did IB - his school offered both IB and A levels and it was the general
consensus that IB was harder work. I am sure you could find some subject combinations that are easier, especially if you speak a couple of languages fluently but on the whole (a) some of the higher level subjects like physics and math are harder than the equivalent A level (b) it’s statistically harder to get a 7 in IB than an A star A levels (c) the exams come around quicker and are more compressed (so a bad day can really cost you) and (d) the amount of coursework is high although it’s not actually worth much in proportion to your grade so sometimes feels like a lot of work for little benefit.

Some universities seem to recognise the amount of work that IB takes and reflect this in the grades (I.e. Warwick) but other universities just substitute the A Level offer for the IB highest IN ADDITION to expecting a high overall point score. So for instance you can get into Durham for physics with 3 A Levels at A Star A star A but the equivalent IB offer would be 776 at higher plus a total of 38 points which means you also need to do well in your standard levels too. It ignores the fact that you’ve done TOK and the extended essay. Other universities like Bath give a decreased offer for a 4th A level or an EPQ but don’t lower their offers for IB higher grade requirement/ in light of the fact you are doing additional subjects and coursework.

I have 2 more DCs and I don’t think either of them will choose to do IB as they can see that doing A levels will be an easier route for them!!! . DS was a glutton for punishment and wanted to challenge himself - although he did complain a lot along the way!!!!!