Business degree (without Maths A Level)?

[Africa2go]

Looking for some general advice please. DS (currently Yr 12) looking at Business degrees - loving Business Studies A Level (also doing English and Geography). Predicted A*AA.

Looking at the well regarded unis for business (research seems to point to Bath, Warwick etc) and whilst they say they don't require Maths A Level, they "ideally" want candidates to demonstrate both numerical & essay writing skills - numeracy demonstrated by Maths, a science, Psychology, Geology etc - none of which he has.

Its our first time as a family going through this - question is whether its a complete waste of an option to apply to the likes of (presumably fiercely competitive unis) when you don't have the "ideal" A level mix. He has a 7 in Maths at GCSE, mostly 8s and 9s and masses of relevant work experience / extra curricular stuff.

Following on from that - if its not worth applying to the likes of Bath / Warwick etc, is a general business degree worthwhile if its not from one of the "top" uni business schools?

Geography often counts as a science A level so check if that would apply. You can always email university admissions with this kind of query as well. Better coming from him that you tho

DD has been accepted at Bath without maths A level

Thank you both. This is what they say

Your entry qualifications should demonstrate a breadth of study through subjects that show both essay-writing and numerical skills. Examples of numerical subjects could include Mathematics, any science, Economics or Psychology Statistics or Geology. Examples of essay-based subjects could include Business Studies, Economics, English Literature, Politics, Psychology, Sociology or Religious Studies

If you study qualifications such as A levels, you will ideally have one subject in each of the above categories and a third complementary subject relevant to this course. Some subjects, such as Economics or Psychology, could be counted for any one of these categories. Examples of relevant complimentary subjects for BSc Business could include Accounting, Geography, Law, Media Studies, Philosophy or Sociology

so he doesn't have an A level in that first category, Geography seemingly one of the "complementary" subjects.

I'll get in touch with the Uni and see what they say. Planning to go to the OPen Day this weekend but its quite a distance for us, so don't want to waste our time (or worse, for him to fall in love with Bath and then be disappointed)!

or he'll get in touch with the uni

All the noise at the moment (e.g. www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jun/15/offer-rate-for-a-level-students-applying-to-top-universities-falls-to-55) suggests it's important not to be over-invested in very competitive universities/courses if there are any criteria on which you might be ruled out (www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jun/11/first-post-covid-school-leavers-face-fight-for-fewer-university-places).

If he's not explicitly excluded by the entry requirements, I don't think it does any harm to apply to one very aspirational choice as long as the others are more realistic and two are pretty much dead-certs for offers with his very high predicted A-Level grades (as long as they're places he'd be willing to go to). You don't need 5 offers.

You could try to convince him that the University of Bath is a muddy field on top of a steep, windy hill outside Bath, then he'll be less disappointed. Although all of that is true, however, it is also a very good university. Similarly, Warwick is a collection of ugly concrete blocks in a field outside Coventry surrounded by traffic jams. Again, though, it is an outstanding university.

I think its parent over-investment rather than student at the moment , those articles and the suggested approach are really useful, thank you.

”science” is a bit unhelpful as it doesn’t say what. But for a biology degree at Bath, which requires “a second science or maths”, geography is on the list (along with food tech and economics) so I think he will be ok.

If you copied from the uni website btw @Africa2go they need to sort their complementary from their complimentary 😯😯

I did!!

I studied health subjects at A-level but didn't get a place at uni despite having the predicted grades. I later reapplied but for a language degree and managed to get offered a place at one uni, despite not having 'required' qualifications to enter.

It's defo worth a shot as you never know what can happen. I recommend your DS making an appointment with the careers advisor at school to explore the options.

One thing to bear in mind is that if a university says a subject is preferred it usually means that the course content will be more difficult without it.

For example DD has just completed a degree in biomedical sciences. The university asked for biology and preferably chemistry. The course was very chemistry heavy, and DD said she felt sorry for students who hadn't taken chemistry at A level.

Uni of Bath is, relative to many unis, very clear about the preferred mix of A-levels for Business/Management courses and about how it defines numbers-heavy and essay-heavy A-level subjects (as it seems to like students to have a foot in both camps). There may be quite a number of Business and Management students at Bath who do not have Maths A-level, but they are likely to have Economics or Psychology in its place as the 'qualifying' numbers-heavy subject. This may, or may not be the case for @Hadalifeonce's DD.

My DC have used SACU Student to get info on usual A-level combinations for students admitted on different courses and a quick scan of that suggests that Bath definitely prefers students with A-levels in both the numbers and essay 'buckets'. Warwick's website is less helpful about A-level guidance but, again, SACU Student info suggests Maths, Economics, Psychology or a physical science features as at least one of the A-levels.

All this does not necessarily mean that your DS, @Africa2go, is not in with a chance but does probably mean the odds are lengthened (at a time when more applicants are chasing a finite supply of places) and, as @RampantIvy indicates, they need to alive to the fact that these particular courses most likely dial up the numerical analysis. So eggs across a range of baskets may be the order of the day.

The good news is that there are lots of courses at other very solid business schools, with good employability stats (eg Leeds, Loughborough, Lancaster), that do not have the same quantitative emphasis at entry or, subject to module selection, on their courses.

That's really helpful, thank you.

OP, if your child is interested in a business career, please persuade them to read about an apprenticeship in a career such as accounting before heading off to uni and paying all the fees and taking on the debt. He may decide it's not at all for him, but on the other hand he may feel that five years of getting paid, professional qualifications and work experience where he gets to sit in front of CEOs and CFOs and ask them questions (in all sorts of companies) is actually just the thing and would set him up quite well. At least spend twenty minutes reading about it.
In terms of maths, personally I'm very numerate, I do have an A-level in further maths, I've never used it. If you are good with percentages and can work with data that's the most important maths I use day to day in my role.

The problem is that it takes the degree to get to the day to day role. FM does indicate someone who is numerate and would find business calcs easy. I did a HNC back in the day and Quantitive Methods was a nightmare for my non O level in Maths self! So I would be very wary of applying for a business degree without Maths. Especially at Warwick. Bath seems clear about what they want too.

So check out other universities as mentioned above. They might have catch up classes if maths is not up to scratch but if he didn’t want to do maths at A level, business at a top university seems an odd choice less than a year further on. He’s gone for grades above subject choice I assume but it could limit choices.

Find out what skills he needs in maths and then at what level. He may need specific maths skills to use for his degree course.

@Tizer I'm interested in your view that Business is an odd choice for someone who didn't want to do Maths A Level. He was good at Maths, but didn't love it, whereas he loved English & Geography and has always been interested in pursuing a business-related degree. I understand completely that there is a need to be numerate - a requirement to understand (and prepare) accounts, cashflows, data analytics, QM etc but thats not what A Level Maths is about (I did it, have another DC currently doing it) - differentiation / trigonometry etc has very little to do with the way you'd need to use and understand Maths in a business context.

I am sure @TizerorFizz will come back to you, @Africa2go. I have a slightly different take and would say the likes of U of Bath and Warwick will be looking for evidence of comfort with statistical analysis as opposed to the full constellation of mathematics, hence Bath's specific definition of what constitutes a 'numbers-heavy' A-level.

There might be ways in which your DS can highlight a comfort with numbers via their personal statement? One of my DC wove quite a bit of statistical analysis (regressions etc) into their geography NEA, for example. DS's contact with the relevant admissions tutors could explore this point - though I must flag these suggestions are speculative on my part and outside my direct experience; other regular posters to these threads, such as @poetryandwine(former admissions tutor, STEM rather than management) may have practical insights to share about how best to engage with admissions tutors and the limits to which admission tutors can be definitive in their responses.

I agree with @thankyouforthesun that L7 school leaver accountancy-related apprenticeships are an option for someone with an interest in how businesses tick and who have strong predicted A-levels. I have a DC going down this path. As it happens, like thankyouforthesun, they have Further Maths A-level but their fellow apprentices have a wide variety of A-levels, very often with a humanities bias; business A-level also features quite often. Employers test for 'natural numeracy' as part of the selection process and so do not use particular A-level choices as a proxy in the way that U of Bath appears to do.

I do not see degree/degree-level apprentices as better or worse than the classic uni route. It is a parallel path that suits those who have a clear idea of the career they want to pursue and the GCSE and A-level performance to succeed in a competitive field and the maturity to hit the world of work at a professional level at 18 and, crucially, the availability of apprenticeships in their chosen career area.

Complementary is correct in that context

I used "complementary", the Uni website (and the quote) says "complimentary"

@Africa2go
I have a DD who was good at maths, and has to use maths at work to some extent, (steep learning curve) but doesn’t love maths. She would never have chosen a degree which required using stats or maths. I know Warwick will require decent numeracy snd grade 7 GCSE might not be good enough compared to other applicants. Bath is also fiercely competitive in this field. For these two universities he’s on the back foot in my opinion. Happy to be wrong though!

My comments regarding choice of A levels is demonstrated by what the universities are saying in terms of subjects. It’s best to look at requirements first, especially now that grade inflation means more DC with maths at A level are likely to be around and many got A grade anyway. These courses are high flying. I’m not sure why he did Geography? It seems not very connected to this career if chosen instead of maths. Even if you look at marketing, and not a financial role, maths is important.

However I do want to stress that my comments only apply to these high flying competitive courses. If a course doesn’t specify maths then give it a go. However when choosing subjects I think it’s best to look at what the top universities want and meet those requirements if you specifically want them. With a 7 at gcse, and probably thinking he wouldn’t get an A at A level, he’s made a pragmatic choice. That’s perfectly reasonable but it’s also reasonable to say that now looking at Bath and Warwick is a bit late.

I agree that numerical ability is important and as I said above, he has that. I also understand that he/we should have been more alive to subject requirements when he made his choices, but rightly or wrongly, making the choices in July 2020 when he hadn't been to school for almost 5 months, the driver was wanting to enjoy sixth form given they'd missed out so much, and picking subjects he'd do well in. Your advice is really useful though, maybe a reality check for him particularly Bath & Warwick.

Just on the Geography point - as above, he loved it, on for an A*, but saw it as very useful as an enabler to a range of courses / jobs - the data gathering / analysis, investigation / critical evaluation, topics such as globalisation, economic development - will all be really relevant skills / knowledge to business.

He will find the skills used for the geography NEA will come in useful for assignments and his dissertation.

@Africa2go
If hex y12, why did he make A level choices in 2020?

I think Geography is a great subject but he’s assuming it’s useful in Business. If he does HR or accounting it won’t matter that much. It’s an interest he’s got. So why not do a Geography degree? He can learn business skills when he gets a grad level job. Or do a masters linked to business and what he enjoys about geography. There’s plenty of routes into business in the areas he likes.