Business degree (without Maths A Level)?

[Africa2go]

Looking for some general advice please. DS (currently Yr 12) looking at Business degrees - loving Business Studies A Level (also doing English and Geography). Predicted A*AA.

Looking at the well regarded unis for business (research seems to point to Bath, Warwick etc) and whilst they say they don't require Maths A Level, they "ideally" want candidates to demonstrate both numerical & essay writing skills - numeracy demonstrated by Maths, a science, Psychology, Geology etc - none of which he has.

Its our first time as a family going through this - question is whether its a complete waste of an option to apply to the likes of (presumably fiercely competitive unis) when you don't have the "ideal" A level mix. He has a 7 in Maths at GCSE, mostly 8s and 9s and masses of relevant work experience / extra curricular stuff.

Following on from that - if its not worth applying to the likes of Bath / Warwick etc, is a general business degree worthwhile if its not from one of the "top" uni business schools?

Aaah! If he’s y12 …..,

@Tizer they had to give prospective A level choices at the end of Yr 10, firmed up at the end of Yr 11.

I think we'll have to agree to differ on Geography - I agree with him that there are many transferable skills between Geography and business so I do think its useful for business. Thank you for all your comments - its really useful to have different views.

My dd did a Businessman degree without Maths A level. She took Maths A level after her degree and got a B.

Geography is very relevant to careers in business - I say this as a geography graduate who has forged a career in business. It is fantastic for developing the 'synthesising' skills that are often needed to pull together and keep on track a complex project or long term initiative - you need people who can see the wood as well as the trees.

Your DS, @Africa2go, has played to his strengths when selecting his A-levels; it means he is more likely to optimise his grades; a B in one of his subjects would definitely have constrained his choices; whereas the likes of Warwick and U of Bath should certainly not be ruled out with his currented predicted grades, particularly if he clarifies admission approaches with both unis.

As you say, the info on this thread is simply meant to be helpful food for thought. Sounds like your DS has been very considered in his approach to it all so far.

Well your quote from the uni website uses both actually. Oh well, it’s not an English degree eh.

I am constantly amazed at the poor grammar, syntax and spelling on shop-window websites. That’s by the by of course.

I agree with this. Look up degree apprenticeships and higher apprenticeships. Going to university to learn how to work in business can be crazy. Those apprenticeships should pay for the degree and pay a salary throughout the several years you do them.

Students come out with a degree and no debt and a ton of experience.

Many years ago (so things may well have changed) I did a Business degree without a Maths A level. I didn't struggle at all and actually Economics was my favourite part of the degree scheme. I subsequently studied an MSc in Statistics and Computing as I enjoyed the statistics side of Economics so much.

This obviously doesn't help with the entry requirements, but it is perfectly possible to end up doing maths based university subjects without an A level in maths.

I did Bachelor of Commerce (BCom) at Uni if Birmingham- this is the oldest business school in the U.K. and BCom is the first Business degree that was available (I think in the world? Certainly the U.K.) so would highly recommend you look at this course. I didn’t have Maths A level and it’s not heavily stats based.

I did my A levels in Business Studies, Law and English (with AS Politics and also AS Critical Thinking) and didn’t struggle with maths on the course … not that the Accounting modules were a favourite part tho 😂!

Nb I was there in the noughties so info may be out of date 😅

@HollowTalk
I do think degree apprenticeships are great but very few 18 year olds get them. Only about 3500 on current stats. Huge numbers do degrees. It’s also difficult to know whether a degree from a lesser university (as many are) is as good as a degree from Warwick 10 years form the line. It’s too early to know but plenty of very bright DC are still going to university. Yes, no fees can be attractive but whether the apprenticeships are financially better in the long run is unknown - especially if a degree holder from a top university gets the degree quicker and gets on a fast track grad training scheme. It will be interesting to see.

My ds studied accounting and finance at Warwick and graduated last year. In his first year students from his course and those taking business/international business had a mandatory maths course together and those without a level maths did struggle.

@ShanghaiDiva
Warwick is known for its maths. It would amaze me if the maths was easy. However how did your DS know who didn’t have maths A level? (Very few I would think.)

However how did your DS know who didn’t have maths A level? (Very few I would think.)

I expect the students will have discussed it among themselves. DD said that she knew that some of the students on her biomed course hadn't taken A level chemistry because they told her.

@TizerorFizz Asking which a levels you took seems to be one of the ice breaker questions in the first few weeks at university...

@ShanghaiDiva
Ah! I just wondered if they were shamed into
admitting it by their marks and ineptitude. I remember that feeling!

Sounds like he needs more alevels etc, what about getting on an access course for x university, or retaking e.g. The maths ect Oxford and Cambridge are cream of the cream so to speak, but you really need to be fully engaged.

Lastly, if you don't apply or don't attempt, then failure in x situation is a guarantee.

He could do an online course in statistics at a suitable level during the summer that could be mentioned in his personal statement. Also worth looking at the Exeter University Business degrees at the Cornwall campus. There is even one that is Business and Environment, fitting in with his geography interest.
I agree with TizeroFizz that doing a geography degree is another good option for somebody interested in business via a management or accounting type graduate scheme. He would gain the skills and credentials for data analyses plus all the extra knowledge base that such a degree provides. It also offers the possibility of later qualification as a surveyor which might be another route into business.

DS is hopefully going to University of Sheffield in September to do international business management. His A levels are Business, Sociology & History. The other place he seriously considered was Lancaster.

Hi, OP -

Sorry I am late to the party. This is an interesting one. You have a lot of good, practical advice here and the first thing I want to do is support the idea that your DS at least look into apprenticeship schemes. They can be utterly fabulous but as @TizerorFizz says, they are in very short supply and extremely competitive.

This thread reminds me of one from a little while back from someone who was a bit light on Maths for an Economics BSc from Warwick and perhaps their other top choices, but well suited to some of the strong BA programmes in Economics. People wrote in describing what they or their children had done with Econ BAs. They had perhaps needed to be more proactive, but they had been able to make good opportunities. That’s the sense I am getting about your DS, and I think @PerpetualOptimist seems to understand it well.

To the specifics: I think we have another tough year ahead. I think Warwick is likely to have a strongly mathematical approach, based on what you’ve said and their general reputation. But I don’t want you to take my word for it. Admissions tutors want to help, ideally at their own convenience. The best thing would be for your DS to contact Warwick and Bath by email laying out his PGs and qualifications, possibly including a suggestion I will make below. See what they say.

Unless they are both highly discouraging (my guess is that W will be, and B will temporise), I would apply to at least and probably only one of them. The suggestions of Lancaster, Leeds, Loughborough and Sheffield are all excellent and I am sure there are others of this calibre. Manchester? Glasgow? I would likely apply to three of them. I would also apply to one dead cert.

I fully agree that your DS won’t be needing trig, but he will be needing a fair amount of statistics. And the maths training helps with general analytical skills. I am wondering whether your DS might do an EPQ, over the summer and into the Autumn Term, bringing statistical analysis to bear on a geographical business problem? Perhaps some aspect of the worldwide shipping crisis, and/or the shipping container problem? I am sure there are many other topics; that is just the first one I thought of. He would be making the case for his ability to do the relevant maths whilst highlighting the relevance of his Geography A level to Business. This is what I think he needs to do.

I don’t know timings for the EPQ - whether pupils need to sign up at the end of Y12 or get some preliminary approval at the beginning of summer, etc. There is no explicit timetable, so it would be down to the school.

I think students on a Business pathway are much more employable if they pick up rudimentary tech skills along the way. What that will mean over the next four years and in the specialism of your DS is anybody’s guess. I also think these students need to be proactive and start making their own opportunities almost from the moment they arrive on campus. With those caveats in mind, it can be a fine field of study.

Thank you. We are off to the Bath open day tomorrow so will see of they can answer some of the queries. We have also looked into MOOCs as a way of doing the gap. We have also looked at degree appenticeships - he's not ruled out go out they seem to be very scarce.

Thank you everyone - definitely food for thought.

Sorry- typos. Bridging the gap!

How did the Open Day at Bath go?

Looking at MOOCs to bridge the gap shows your DS and you have absolutely caught both the spirit and the practicalities of the thing. But MOOCs have dismal completion rates, with a highly respected study from Teachers College at Columbia University (Ivy League) giving 15%. That was the highest rate I found in an admittedly cursory recent search for you.

All the studies were before Covid, and sadly modern pupils are vastly more experienced with online study. So rates may be improving somewhat. But the quality of MOOCs is quite variable and of course the examinable studies of your DS must take priority. A MOOC is def one possibility but if it is not too late and only if your DS has enthusiasm for the idea an EPQ is certainly another. Admissions tutors will be more confident of the latter. But I do agree that if the issue is ‘he needs statistics’ a MOOC will better address it. And anyone who knows anything about the completion rates will be impressed by a teenager who has managed to finish one successfully.

Some management accounting isvquite maths heavy, think being able to dérive the formula for mortgage repayments and economic theory.

Just to report back - this was a question in the lecture we attended so other people in the same situation - they said they look at the whole application and the A Level mix is just one part of that. The Business lecturer (when we spoke to her afterwards) said Business Studies can count as a numerical A Level and he has the "perfect" combination of A Levels for the Business degree, but advised us to have a word with the Admissions team. They were less enthusiastic, agreed that Business Studies can count as a numerical A Level but they "strongly prefer" Maths. So, given that my son really liked it, he thinks he'll apply & we're going to work on strengthening his Maths following some of the fabulous advice we've had. It will be useful anyway.

We're also visiting most of the other unis mentioned on this thread and an apprenticeship fair, so thank you everyone. You've all been really helpful.

Glad your DS liked the place. I quite like Bath myself.

Of course, @newtb , present value and future value of money are likely to be key concepts in the business curriculum. These are really just geometric sums in disguise. Possibly also doubling time, exponential growth (including the dreaded logarithms?) and a small number of other topics as well as statistics. I am afraid this isn’t my area.

Good luck to your DS, OP!