Reapply to Cambridge?

[Mollymalone225]

What are your thoughts on reapplying to Cambridge? DC was pooled and rejected for Natsci (physics) this year. Was predicted 4 A*s, had gold in physics and chemistry olympiads that was mentioned in personal statement. Since then has grown to like maths/physics a bit more than chemistry.

DC has an offer from UCL (natsci) to start 2022 and if reapplying only wants the following 5 (in order of preference)
Cambridge (natsci again- doesn't like Cambridge engineering course),
Imperial (2 courses in engineering- civil and mechanical)
UCL (natsci/physics and engineering).

He only wants to consider Cambridge, Imperial or UCL and I'm really worried that second time round he will get no offers from these places even if he ends up securing 4A*s. Why? Cambridge favours state school applicants and DC goes to selective private school. Imperial/UCL are incredibly competitive and nothing is a guarantee- especially if one takes a gap year, real passion needs to be shown. Given DC is so unsure about physics/natsci/engineering and wants to apply for different courses at each of the universities, I'm not sure a single personal statement can deliver passion for all this. So his statement will probably be natsci-oriented with a splash of engineering related work experience if he secures it. Gap year opportunities in relevant areas are so competitive and rare.

I'm so scared he'll end up with no offers - is it better to take the UCL offer and move on? So worried. Thoughts, advice much welcome. (of course, reapplying only applicable if he ends up getting at least 3 A*s in further maths, maths, chemistry and physics)

Get the gist certainly thing47 but on the issue of money I have to say that your parent body sounds a lot more affluent than ours. The idea of a funds for a new sixth form centre being raised in months purely by parental donations could never happen in our SLTs wildest dreams. Are you sure that these projects weren’t in fact funded by a collection of special bids from government plus a small proportion from fund raising events? Parents are generally thanked excessively for obvious reasons, which may skew the impression of what proportion of a project was actually attributable to them.

mellicauli

We've given it some thought and we've come to the conclusion that the Cambridge admissions tutors have a tough job trying to differentiate between thousands of exceptional and excellent students. And given the choice of a student who has lived, breathed and loved their subject for years and one who can't even commit to a single course on their UCAS form, they are going to give the place to the former.

I agree with this. And even then it is still a bit of a lottery because there will be more students like this than there are places.

This

Yes... 'I'm not sure a single personal statement can deliver passion for all this.' ...well, maybe it could if the applicant had genuinely been engaged with more than one thing and it was a matter of deciding what they were most enthusiastic about, but the OP is conveying a lukewarm ditherer. Maybe that's her and doesn't represent her DC accurately though.

You can't do that. If he ants to reapply for Cambridge he needs to decline the UCL and then reapply for that too.

Yes I've already said that the UCAS rules don't allow you to be on their system for one round, holding a deferred offer, and to re-enter the system with a new application. It's clear that people think that's a smart move.... it can't happen.

a student who has lived, breathed and loved their subject for years

Heaps of students who get offers from Oxford and Cambridge don't live, breathe and love their subject - bit excessive aged 18 to expect that - and at least as many will waver between subjects, on the grounds that a lot of these DC are very, very able at more than one subject and enjoy them equally. The trick is to decide what to actually go for ahead of applying and writing the personal statement, even if it's a bit of a blag. You're not required to open your soul, just to make a decent case for whichever subject you settle on.

@Polpetto thankfully DC was on a means tested bursary at his private school. gosh. the assumptions some people make and judgements they pass!

@goodbyestranger and in the interview with the tutors?

I don't think it makes the education less advantageous nor expensive in the round just because the pupil in question is on a bursary though I realise they may have less access to music tuition.

Difficult one. But he doesn't have to decide right now. He can accept UCL (and an insurance choice if he has a suitable one) and then take his exams and see what happens. He can decide to withdraw and give it a go next year any time up to enrolment which is usually some time in Sept.

@Mollymalone225 what was inaccurate about my post? Whether he got a bursary or not he’s had an expensive education. You chose that for him.

and sorry but as a state school student who got to Cambridge without all those advantages I do find your attitude distasteful.

Zilla1 you answer their questions.

OP Zilla is exactly right. Your DS has still had a privileged education. That's my point about grammar school applicants being held to a similar standard. It's about the privilege of education not whether you pay £12k rather than £18k a year for fees. That's irrelevant.

You do as do the equally achieving students who have a passion for their subject. I remember and am told the tutors are still reasonably good at recognising a bit of a blag at interview compared with the on-paper equally good pupil who can talk about current research in their area. Not to say the truly gifted in some subjects like maths and music can't shine without work but in my experience, those tend to have a passion for the subject and the musicians often go for the Royal Colleges and Conservatoires.

Given DC is so unsure about physics/natsci/engineering and wants to apply for different courses at each of the universities, I'm not sure a single personal statement can deliver passion for all this.

This sounds like the issue to me - DC seems focused on just getting to Cambridge rather than having a clear idea of exactly where he wants his studies to take him.

Natsci does give you lots of options but I’ve seen someone else get into Cambridge on a second application and then jump from course to course because their entire focus was on getting there rather than what they had a clear interest in / desire to study.

You say he’s interested in mech eng / civ eng - has he had any work experience to give him an insight into what engineers do?

I’d also point out that a communication course for scientists / engineers is actually very useful - anyone looking at a career in engineering, for instance, needs to be a good communicator (which, from experience, is often lacking).

Also, your comment on being able to study Earth sciences or geophysics - they look like separate options at UCL rather than at Cambridge, looking at the course content on websites? If DC is interested in materials science then it doesn’t look like it’s covered at UCL?

and sorry but as a state school student who got to Cambridge without all those advantages I do find your attitude distasteful.

Yes, how "unfortunate" it is for a state school student to be selected ahead of someone from an indie with the same grades
It's not unfortunate, it's entirely appropriate.

And then to think it's because state school students are "favoured". It's not, it's because Cambridge look at all the evidence and think they are better applicants.

I haven't been to any independent school parents' evenings, for obvious reasons, but I do wonder if they tend to say what the parent wants to hear about their kid rather than the stripped down version which is what I think I've got at my own DCs' parents evenings (ours were annual meetings at the grammar and I've attended 55 in total, so a reasonable level of experience).

Precisely @Bovrilly. The evidence shows that the state school students who get to Cambridge outperform their privately educated peers across the board. Certainly true on my course in my college.

If parents don’t think private schools confer any advantage, what on earth are they paying for*?

*whether in part or in full or otherwise…

Zilla1 some students are equally able at more than one subject. That doesn't mean that they aren't equally enthusiastic about all the subjects that they are very able at. I have eight DC. I love them all equally and am not unenthusiastic about any of them simply because I have more than one DC. Same deal.

'The last time it was discussed, I was told no allowance was made for selective grammars that are, in substance, private schools in resources, selection and such like.'

That was the point and unlike for example a failing school, a grammar can select and exit disruptive pupils more easily. interesting a PP chose to cut off my point after 'resources' to disagree. Some grammars do receive less income that private schools and some state schools. Grammars also have access to dedicated government funds and historical endowments and infrastructure that make funding more difficult to compare than just headline PP income.

IME, Cambridge admissions take an enormous/disproportionate amount of tutors' time at the cost of research. People assert it's not fair without an understanding of the relative advantages of most private education against which limited allowances are made and the quality of state applicants who are also rejected.

All I meant was: if the tutor says analyse this passage of seventeenth century French literature don't start explaining why you like physical geography. The tutors don't need to know what else you like, they want to know if you're able at their subject. Also, ability and passion aren't coterminous.

I've only met Cambridge grads who had harrowing experiences, 2 mental breakdowns at finals, another one with PTSD over it still now. As a london grad who has the best, most supported experience, with the same career as my Cambridge grad colleagues I would steer him towards having an amazing time in London. For my subject London has consistently ranked better than Cambridge anyway so it's not that the shiny name actually buys you better teaching or a better experience. (Although I can't say for physics).

Also I was a gap year student (applied for a deferred entry straight off because I wanted to travel) - I had no idea Cambridge was against this!

Zilla1 I picked up on the resources point only because I didn't disagree with the other points!

You're on very weak ground with the finance thing though. If you compare the top grammars with the top independents the former have vastly less to spend per pupil. The difference is huge. Obviously there are some failing/ nearly bankrupt independents which are struggling financially but that would be a poor comparison. Grammars do not have special pots of money to tap into for pupil spending, although occasionally there are building funds they can bid for - not tied to grammar status (leaving aside the expansion thing recently - but again, that wouldn't increase spend per pupil).

Since I've always agreed that contextualising grammars at Oxbridge admissions is fair anyhow I'm not clear why picking up the finance thing which you got wrong is an issue.

Whether you use ability or enthusiasm or passion or whatever descriptor, time is limited and choices sometimes need to be made. it's not to say someone interested in music and sport and physics and engineering might not be equally enthusiastic and able nor that they get a lot out of complementary activities nor that they might be better than someone who just focuses on one subject or activity. What it does mean is that in a highly competitive system, they might not shine compared with someone equally able and enthusiastic solely about physics or engineering and who chose to spend their limited time on one subject to read current research, spend holidays on relevant placements and suchlike. Some of the most able do lots of things, indeed at College some but not all of the scholars were also Blues but the point I suggested the OP consider is that their DC is in effect in competition with equally or more able applicants and as A-Levels no longer give the differentiation they did 40 years ago before the changes, 'blagging' at interview or personal statement or having passions across different subjects will have a cost or risk in this situation. You love your 8 children but unless you have lots of family or help, how do you cope with limited time when all 8 want to do a different and conflicting out of school activity at different locations at the same time and day if school friends' parents can't take them is an analogy I suppose. If all 8 want to do an expensive activity and you can only afford 1, how do you choose. Sometimes life in an optimisation problem.