Reapply to Cambridge?

[Mollymalone225]

What are your thoughts on reapplying to Cambridge? DC was pooled and rejected for Natsci (physics) this year. Was predicted 4 A*s, had gold in physics and chemistry olympiads that was mentioned in personal statement. Since then has grown to like maths/physics a bit more than chemistry.

DC has an offer from UCL (natsci) to start 2022 and if reapplying only wants the following 5 (in order of preference)
Cambridge (natsci again- doesn't like Cambridge engineering course),
Imperial (2 courses in engineering- civil and mechanical)
UCL (natsci/physics and engineering).

He only wants to consider Cambridge, Imperial or UCL and I'm really worried that second time round he will get no offers from these places even if he ends up securing 4A*s. Why? Cambridge favours state school applicants and DC goes to selective private school. Imperial/UCL are incredibly competitive and nothing is a guarantee- especially if one takes a gap year, real passion needs to be shown. Given DC is so unsure about physics/natsci/engineering and wants to apply for different courses at each of the universities, I'm not sure a single personal statement can deliver passion for all this. So his statement will probably be natsci-oriented with a splash of engineering related work experience if he secures it. Gap year opportunities in relevant areas are so competitive and rare.

I'm so scared he'll end up with no offers - is it better to take the UCL offer and move on? So worried. Thoughts, advice much welcome. (of course, reapplying only applicable if he ends up getting at least 3 A*s in further maths, maths, chemistry and physics)

Sorry if this has been mentioned in the thread but one anecdotal note of caution. This admission cycle a student reapplied to Cambridge for Natural Sciences having turned down Imperial and UCL offers from the previous year. Got in to Cambridge, 4 A stars but rejected this time round by UCL and Imperial.

Reapplying may be higher risk than in previous years.

Finally! Was beginning to think no-one would point this out to Impossible.

OP, Cambridge are not atvsll keen on gap years from STEM subjects or Maths. Why don’t you email your Student Liaison Officer for your school ( they are regionally designated) and ask for their view?

The Cambridge SLO that is…

Interesting. Thanks for pointing out.

The recent Times article about Cambridge admissions said
"Private schools educate about 7 per cent of children. The proportion for sixth-formers is believed to be about 12 per cent. "

I'd have thought there would be a reliable source for the percentage.

It's just common sense that that figure is the reliable one Errol, if only because independents don't all more than double in size between Y11 and 12.

Also, which is the relevant figure: the GCSE figure or the sixth form figure?

It wouldn’t need to double between y11 and 12- 7% is the average for all schools, but secondary is far higher than primary (lots of schools do double in size at this point) and sixth form is higher again.

The 20% figure comes from here.

guidetoindependentschools.com/key-independent-school-statistics/#:~:text=Some%2020%25%20of%20all%20UK,they%20are%20also%20a%20part).

The only other I can find is the Independent which suggested 14% and rising back in 2015.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/number-of-pupils-attending-independent-schools-in-britain-on-the-rise-figures-show-10215959.html%3Famp

I’ve seen the “20% of UK sixth form pupils are at independent schools” figure before (I think it was from one of the UK independent school bodies).Wiki suggests 18%.

Either way, Oxbridge admissions are slowly catching up when you look at the historic admissions stats versus the current HESA recommendations.

It was a very basic point Nik. 20% isn't that credible if the figure (which seems not to be in dispute) is 7% for earlier years. I can't think of a single school where the intake balloons in the sixth form.

I'm with Errol. Probably fair to trust Cambridge with the figures, rather than MN.

Maybe there's a discrepancy depending on if they're including all pupils in U.K. schools which would include those considered as overseas students for the purposes of admissions, or just the ones who'd be counted as 'home students'? The latter is what would be relevant for this discussion.

7% is the figure for total number of children of all ages in UK independent schools.

There are various claims for independent school sixth forms accounting for between 14% and 20% of A level students.

guidetoindependentschools.com/key-independent-school-statistics/

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/number-of-pupils-attending-independent-schools-in-britain-on-the-rise-figures-show-10215959.html?amp

The official school and pupil census data collected separately by each of the devolved governments puts the proportion of sixth formers in independent schools at somewhere between 13.8% and 14.6% (as of 20/21). It is difficult to produce an exact aggregate figure across the four nations because each of the devolved governments collects slightly different information using slightly different definitions (and sometimes Scotland just decides not to acknowledge that it has any pupils at all in independent schools). It also depends whether you include special schools and the like in the totals. The 20% figure might be only England or only A Level students rather than total pupil headcount (or it might just be wrong...)

The independent sector does not need to see intake balloon in the 6th form to see an increased proportion of pupils being educated in independent schools. In fact it doesn't. The absolute number of pupils in each year group in independent schools actually declines between years 11 and 12. However, the relative proportion of 6th form pupils educated in the independent sector increases because the state sector loses more pupils, both in absolute numbers and as a proportion of its year 11 population, at the transition point between year 11 and 6th form. Essentially, at 6th form, you have a smaller pie and while the independent sector takes a proportionately bigger slice of the pie, everyone has less pie.

But the actual figures are immaterial as long as Cambridge is consistent in their definitions, and you compare their figures in an apples and apples way.

Cambridge has defined a category of people who they have notionally labelled as 'people from independent schools' and determined that the proportion of its students who meet their definition of 'people from independent schools' is higher than the proportion of the total pupil population who meet the same definition. They aspire to the two proportions being more similar. It doesn't really matter if they have decided 12 or 14 or 20 or 25% meet their definition of 'people from independent schools' because they are always comparing apples with apples.

It also doesn't matter if other people come up with different figures for the pupil population in independent schools using their own definition of what constitutes the category of 'people from independent schools' because their definition is not the definition Cambridge has decided should be used to define an apple, so it's not comparable. Cambridge might have included what would be commonly accepted as plums in their definition of apples, other people might have decided all apples are green, it makes no difference as long as Cambridge (and those who want to analyse their figures) always compare using Cambridge's own consistent definition of an apple.

Phphion yes I see all that. I had assumed wrongly that the school leaving age had been raised to 18 UK wide, rather than it being in England only. I also assumed - not sure if this is right or wrong - that only a small percentage of school students would move to apprenticeships because of the inadequate provision of those. Having had a quick glance at the numbers leaving etc it doesn't seem to support the idea of 20% in the independent sector, which is the figure almost always used on MN (and which may well not matter to Cambridge, I'll give you that) but that's clearly misleading.

Just to slightly correct goodbyestranger - the school leaving age in England remains 16. The participation age has been raised. In practice however many state kids leave at 16 and do no further education.

Yes titchy I know it's participation, I was going for the meaning.

I didn't know that a lot just left anyway despite the change in 2015. Do you know how many? I knew some but didn't appreciate that it was lots. Bad either way, obviously.

I'm wondering if MN has just latched on to the 2015 numbers and now that's become the mantra, used to show how fair it is that so many independent school applicants get offers from Oxbridge.

I mean pre-2015 numbers.

@goodbyestranger - on apprenticeships. The latest figures show 56,000 under 19s on apprenticeship programmes in England (DfE) release. Is that more than you'd have thought?

No, way way way less, by tens and tens of thousands, than I thought. Presumably those figures are skews downwards though, because of the pandemic.

*skewed

Stats are here. The numbers are back up from the previous year.

explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/apprenticeships-and-traineeships

What's the total population of students in sixth form?

In England only in 19/20 post KS4 destinations of state school pupils were:

• Education - 87.2% (36.1% in FE colleges, 37.2% in school sixth forms, 12.9% in sixth form colleges, 0.9% others including 0.4% in independent schools)


• Apprenticeships - 3.7% (2.4% in Level 2 apprenticeships, 1.4% in Level 3)


• Employment - 3.1%


• Unsustained destinations, NEETs, unknowns - 6%

Total population 552,839

Post KS4 destinations for state schools pupils who were in selective state schools were:

• Education - 97.9% (5% in FE colleges, 87.5% in school sixth forms, 3.7% in sixth form colleges, 1.6% other including 1.5% in independent schools)


• Apprenticeships - 0.7% (0.2% in Level 2 apprenticeships, 0.3 in Level 3)


• Employment - 0.5%


• Unsustained destinations, NEETs, unknowns - 1%

Total population 23,999

This data is from the National Pupil Database and the Longitudinal Educational Outcomes (LEO) dataset.

Headline data for Wales is pretty much the same, Scotland is not really comparable due to their different system.

Probably ICS or someone has data on post KS4 destinations for independent schools, but I would imagine they look pretty much like the destinations for pupils in selective state schools.

@Mollymalone225 Really quite embarrassing to depict your son as disadvantaged by his private education.