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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

Could I ask a probably daft question about firm and insurance choices?

42 replies

Champagneforeveryone · 24/04/2022 00:33

Neither DH or I went to university proper so we're not really in a position to advise DS. I'm sure the answer is quite simple, but we are completely blind to it at this point!

DS has offers from 4 of his 5 choices and has been somewhat startled to get an offer for Kings College in London. He had expected a rejection and had decided in his head he would accept Queen Mary's instead, as they were asking for AAB and he would still get to study in London. Now Kings have offered him a place on a closely related course (which he is happy to do) at AAA.

Ideally he would put Queen Mary's as firm and Kings as insurance, however if he doesn't get Queen Mary's then he won't get Kings. If he puts Kings as firm and then gets AAA he will then be liable to attend.

Frankly I would prefer if he went to a nice uni, a short car drive away in a pretty city but the choice is not mine. He is desperate to see some of the big wide world having grown up quite rurally all his life and fair play to him.

He is going to speak to staff at college in the week but any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated 🙂

OP posts:
Suprima · 24/04/2022 00:47

I don’t understand what you are asking?

yes, you are correct that if he firms kings then he will be automatically assigned a place there.

there is no point in putting kings as insurance because if he misses the grades for queen Mary, then he could end up with no place whatsoever as his insurance has higher grades. He’ll need to go through clearing.

what is the course at kings he has been offered? Unis will commonly offer unpopular courses to students to fill up spaces, hoping they will choose the brand name over their intended course

DramaAlpaca · 24/04/2022 00:53

His insurance choice should be one that requires lower grades, in case he doesn't get the grades for his first choice.

Original poster
Champagneforeveryone · 24/04/2022 01:00

Thank you suprima, I think what I want is someone to tell me the correct decision to make which I will then relay to DS who will of course follow that advice 😆

He applied to do politics and has been offered European politics by Kings. From the cursory glance research he's done he said there isn't an enormous difference between the two and he is happy with the course content. I think he didn't expect to be offered anything by Kings and had reconciled it in his head. Perhaps you're correct and I'm swayed by the "brand", which is interesting 🤔

Would it be wise to just put down Queen Mary's and no insurance, then if he doesn't get the grades pray that something pops up in clearing? FWIW I think college will advise him to go for Kings as they are very pushy and have a good reputation for their sixth form destinations.

OP posts:
KeepingMyCoffee · 24/04/2022 01:57

Go for Kings

sashh · 24/04/2022 02:13

The 'insurance' is just that, if you don't make the grades for your chosen uni then it should be one you are happy to go to.

There is no point putting an insurance with higher grades because if you get those grades you will be going to that uni.

It might be worth asking if he can swap to his first choice course at Kings, often the first year of a degree can lead to different degrees so you can swap, it is easier at some than others.

SallyMcNally · 24/04/2022 02:44

If he hadn't got into kings what would be be putting as his insurance?

GetThatHelmetOn · 24/04/2022 03:07

Okay… the last two years have been a proper mess with Covid so a lot of kids have got their predicted grades, but in a normal year with exams (like this one) only about 15% of them get their predicted grades. A lot of universities ask for AAA+ as a standard offer but with so few people getting those grades they might be prepared to accept students who achieved a grade of two below the standard offer, unfortunately, you would need a crystal ball to know how low they would go but in general, the higher they are in the leagues particularly they are in the subject the less likely it will be that they accept kids that do not meet the offer. This is particularly true when it comes to the top ten.

What my son did was to choose a secure insurance choice first (with a standard offer 1 point below his predicted grades) and take a higher level of risk with his firm choice. Need to say however that he loved his insurance choice so he always maintained that getting his firm choice would make him feel proud but that he wouldn’t be at all disappointed if he ended in his insurance Uni.

GetThatHelmetOn · 24/04/2022 03:12

Did I understand that right? Not putting a insurance choice to try in clearing??? Don’t do that, that only increases the risks and complicated things further. If he ends in the insurance Uni, he can still call other universities with his grades in hand in clearing to see if they would take him, if he gets a verbal offer then he can release himself into Clearing and accept the offer he got during clearing.

Ajay96 · 24/04/2022 03:24

Hi, my experience is in Scotland however the process was pretty similar, although we ordered choices 1-5, with 1 being 1st, 2 being 2nd etc.
I wanted to share my experience when applying, as it highlights things aren't as clear cut as they seem. When my results came in I worked out I didn't meet conditions for first choice but I had enough to be accepted to second choice. My choices were different unis and different subjects, basically I struggled to decide decide career path so applied for a few. I was really excited about second choice and that's what I expected to be inside my letter from uni, however it turned out my first choice accepted me, even though I fell short of one grade, (I received a c instead of a b). It was Definetly my preferred choice, although in shock was over the moon and couldn't believe it. I then found out, it's common for larger courses not to fully fill with those you met conditionals and chose as first option, therefore leaving x amount of spaces available so they look at those who just missed out, taking into consideration other factors (unfortunately I'm unsure of what these actually are) mine being I was the first in my family to attend uni, or any education past 4th year.
I hope your DS doesnt end up in similar situation as I did, but it's always good to know there's still a chance. Good luck to him, I wish him all the best x

bbn81 · 24/04/2022 06:02

The insurance choice does need to be a lower offer than the firm choice. It also needs to be a uni he is prepared to go to. Be careful about relying clearing. Before covid unis would still offer a place even if grades were missed. So he might need to take that into account. He needs to consider this is a place he is going to spend at least 3 years at and a lot of money on too.

Mumdiva99 · 24/04/2022 06:15

Insurance is a back up choice with lower grades. So your some should first think which do I prefer Queen Marys or King's.
If it's Queen Mary's then select an insurance lower does he have any ABB? Or BBC offers? Or an unconditional?

If he prefers King's. Then think is AAB one grade lower a good insurance? It wouldn't be low enough for me. I would still put another uni as insurance with a slightly lower offer.

wizzler · 24/04/2022 06:58

I agree with @bbn81. Ds is in y13. The uni I visited with him said they had made offers before the govt reduced the syllabus for exams and as a result said they don't expect to have any places in clearing and if you don't meet the conditional offer you are unlikely to get a place

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 24/04/2022 07:15

Please see www.ucas.com/undergraduate/results-confirmation-and-clearing/what-clearing/declining-your-firm-place ("Will I lose my insurance place if I decline my firm place?").

If he makes King's his firm choice and meets their conditions (or has a place confirmed despite narrowly missing the conditions), he can only decline that place by releasing himself into Clearing. It's possible that Queen Mary would still give him a place but he would have to phone them to ask them to confirm this before releasing himself from the King's offer. It will depend on whether they have places available.

There isn't really much point making King's his insurance choice as if he meets their conditions he must also have met QMC's. He really needs to decide which he would prefer to go to.

Xenia · 24/04/2022 09:42

He should go for Kings as first firmed choice as it is the better place. He should also have a second choice back up and it sounds like Queen Mary would be his second choice rather than one of the other 2 (not named in the post).

Suprima · 24/04/2022 10:07

Champagneforeveryone · 24/04/2022 01:00

Thank you suprima, I think what I want is someone to tell me the correct decision to make which I will then relay to DS who will of course follow that advice 😆

He applied to do politics and has been offered European politics by Kings. From the cursory glance research he's done he said there isn't an enormous difference between the two and he is happy with the course content. I think he didn't expect to be offered anything by Kings and had reconciled it in his head. Perhaps you're correct and I'm swayed by the "brand", which is interesting 🤔

Would it be wise to just put down Queen Mary's and no insurance, then if he doesn't get the grades pray that something pops up in clearing? FWIW I think college will advise him to go for Kings as they are very pushy and have a good reputation for their sixth form destinations.

I would usually say go for Kings as it’s the better uni but that degree course seems a bit off to me. I did a politics related undergrad myself. He will end up with a very Eurocentric course and even though he says the course content is the same- I wouldn’t want to do a politics degree without looking at the Middle East or Asia.

they are offering it to him because they don’t want to offer him a space on the straight politics course- but want his tuition fees.

universities can for manoeuvre once you are in. So if he firms kings, he could swap courses to generic politics after a few weeks- which is what I would advise. If he firms kings this should be his game plan

so I would firm kings - on the grounds he will attempt to swap courses to straight politics once he was in. I reckon it’s likely. I went to a similar tier uni and people did the same.

and insure QM. As long as he is confident he will get those grades.

LIZS · 24/04/2022 10:16

If he wants QM then he should firm it. Kings are unlikely to slip on grades but maybe for a less popular course they might. Usually you would have a higher grade firm than insurance but it depends how he feels things are going. If on the results day he preferred Kings he could ring and see if he could be considered assuming he met the entry requirements, then be released from QM if so.

HomeprideSaucy · 24/04/2022 10:18

I would firm kings - on the grounds he will attempt to swap courses to straight politics once he was in. I reckon it’s likely. I went to a similar tier uni and people did the same.

....but by not offering him a place on the original course, that's an indication that it's pretty full. I think doing the above is a high risk strategy, certainly this year when there is still a lot of covid uncertainty. He shouldn't go if he doesn't want to do the course that has been offered.

heartofgrass · 24/04/2022 10:23

Go for Kings (I had offers for both but went to QM. One of my life's regrets tbh)

Suprima · 24/04/2022 10:39

HomeprideSaucy · 24/04/2022 10:18

I would firm kings - on the grounds he will attempt to swap courses to straight politics once he was in. I reckon it’s likely. I went to a similar tier uni and people did the same.

....but by not offering him a place on the original course, that's an indication that it's pretty full. I think doing the above is a high risk strategy, certainly this year when there is still a lot of covid uncertainty. He shouldn't go if he doesn't want to do the course that has been offered.

Once you’re in the room- it’s a lot easier.

people leave, don’t accept places, decide not to go. There is mobility.

there are also huge lecture halls of 300+ people on the core politics modules (I know from personal experience of sneaking in with my friend who did straight politics) so it’s not a case of boutique seminars with tiny numbers. One more won’t hurt if it’s a choice between him leaving the uni as he decides in week 4 that he doesn’t want to do straight EU politics

i think it’s worth the risk. It’s a much better uni than queen Mary.

BigWoollyJumpers · 24/04/2022 10:44

Insurance doesn't NEED to be a lower offer. What if you have offers of all the same grades? DD's were all AAA, happens a lot. DD's firm became the lower offer, by her firming it, her insurance thence became the standard higher offer. Put where you want to go, not who gives lower offers.

MarchingFrogs · 24/04/2022 13:19

If he really wants to go to King's but would be happy with QMUL, then the answer is easy.

If he really prefers King's (I am assuming that he has visited both?), but isn't particularly keen on the alternative course offered, then he could look at whether any other alternatives he likes the look of more ate still open to applications and ask if he can swap.

If he genuinely would prefer QMUL and the course he has applied for and been offered there, though, then he should firm QMUL. If KCL is then his genuine second favourite and he is not totally averse to the concept of using Clearing, just insure it anyway.

For a university not always in Clearing, King's does seem to have quite a few courses still 'open' at the moment.

The very last thing to do is do what his college tells him to do if it is because it is the best thing for their destinations board.

Original poster
Champagneforeveryone · 24/04/2022 18:58

SallyMcNally · 24/04/2022 02:44

If he hadn't got into kings what would be be putting as his insurance?

Exeter, but he's really not that keen. It's not that far from us and he's always wanted to go to London, but was persuaded by school who have close links.

All your comments have been so helpful, so thank you all 🙂

DS is engaged in the process and school are very pushy, but he doesn't seem to know much at all about clearing (if anything) I am also sceptical (as already mentioned) that the school has a genuine bias as to what will look better on them. However they have more working knowledge of the process so who am I to question it <shrug>

Its helpful to hear that there is an option to change course once there. I suggested this might be the case but was poo-pooed by my infinitely wiser child 😉

OP posts:
HewasH2O · 24/04/2022 19:28

If he wants to put QMUL as his firm, do just that. If he thinks KCL with an alternative course isn't his first choice, he shouldn't firm it.

Notagardener · 24/04/2022 19:49

To my surprise DC thought it would be quite easy to change course from less to more desirable course, at kcl.

EduCated · 24/04/2022 19:55

BigWoollyJumpers · 24/04/2022 10:44

Insurance doesn't NEED to be a lower offer. What if you have offers of all the same grades? DD's were all AAA, happens a lot. DD's firm became the lower offer, by her firming it, her insurance thence became the standard higher offer. Put where you want to go, not who gives lower offers.

You can put whichever offer you want as your insurance, but there are exceptionally few situations in which a higher offer as your insurance actually provides anything.

Put it by all means, but understand that you are likely to end up with no place if you miss the grades for your firm and your insurance is a higher offer.