Law at Bristol or Modern Languages at Oxford (followed by SQE1&2)?

[rheafern]

Hi, hypothetical dilemma! DD is in Year 12 and wants to study Law. But she knows it's very competitive and it might make more sense to apply for Modern Languages (something she also loves) and then do SQE1&2. But then how would a degree in Law from another good university be and look like? I'm not from this country and I'm not sure about what it really means to have an Oxford degree in your CV. Any views? Thanks very much!

@sendsummer

Degrees in modern languages at places like Oxford are focussed on using acquired language skills to study literature in that language. If that If that is what she likes most from her A level studies then that’s fine. If not, then she should stick to her original choice of a law degree.

This is a really important point. OP, make sure your DD understands that an Oxford MFL degree is very "literature heavy". If she enjoys literature, great. But if not, I don't think she'd be happy doing an MFL degree at Oxford.

You really cannot be a high flying lawyer without reading and dissecting information. That’s why MFL grads, history grads, classics grads do well from Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol etc. it’s because these courses require the students to study literature. It’s not what they speak, it’s all about literature and how they evaluate information. As @goodbyestranger says, it’s thinking skills. It really isn’t about having a conversation in French because you don’t like literature.

@rheafern
Yes some lawyers will work in other countries for UK companies. They have a great time doing it. What’s the advantage of working for EU based companies? How easy or difficult is it to work for them? What area of law might she be interested in? I think you have to think carefully about this if you choose to move away from the uk for work and qualification. I’m always mystified why MFL grads are encouraged to work abroad. They can do very well here.

Regarding the idea of applying to four law courses and one MFL, wouldn't that cause problems for her personal statement?

What is it that interests your DD about law?

@Boosterquery, @sendsummer, yes, she really enjoys Literature so that's fine.

@Thedogisdrivingmemad

Regarding the idea of applying to four law courses and one MFL, wouldn't that cause problems for her personal statement?

I suppose it might. We'll check the possibility of having two personal statements. I'm kind of sold on the idea of applying for MFL at Oxford and then Law mixed with experience abroad at other universities. This could make more sense in a personal statement. But she's the one who will decide.

@goodbyestranger

What is it that interests your DD about law?

I think it's a combination of what she understands to be to work Law (and there's a whole universe for her to explore further) with the way she thinks this is a profession that would probably value her strengths (good at debating, very logical mind, self-critical, hardworking). But she still needs to do more research on the different areas of Law, talk to people to have clearer idea of where to go and if, for example, doing part of her degree abroad makes sense or not.

Law at other universities? How would this work? How would she get qualified?

@TizerorFizz

Law at other universities? How would this work? How would she get qualified?

Sorry, @TizerorFizz... not sure if I understood the question. She would apply for MFL at Oxford, but Law at other universities. I mean that I'm thinking would make sense, despite the challenge about the personal statement. Next steps to get qualified would depend on whether she gets an offer and from where. But she would have to sit the SQE1&2 exams in any case.

Sorry. I thought you meant law at university after the MFL degree. I’m not sure you can submit different PS’s. Others would know but it’s very indecisive. What would be wrong with MFL at Durham or Bristol or UCL for example? Whatever she does, the selection tests will be what matters if she wants to be a solicitor. So whether she’s studied law or MFL I cannot see it will make a huge difference. Personally I would choose one or the other and it she should evaluate which she prefers.

It looks like you cannot send more than one PS in: www.ucas.com/undergraduate/applying-university/writing-personal-statement/writing-a-personal-statement-for-multiple-courses

@TizerorFizz, yes, we will think about it carefully. Thank you very much for your generous advice. And, @Thedogisdrivingmemad, what a super useful link. Thank you!

Durham will allow you to submit a different personal statement to the one submitted to UCAS if it is for a different course.

Yes SeasonFinale so it basically leaves the DD opting for MFL for choices 1, 3, 4 and 5 and Durham for Law for choice 2. It could work but seems pretty messy. The Durham admissions staff (first sifting level) do see both statements too don't forget and may not be wildly impressed by the Durham tool being used for something for which it was never intended.

I just don’t it is sensible to do this. Keep it straightforward: apply for MFL or law. Law with French maybe?

I’d endorse what others including Goodbyestranger and TizerorFizz have said. A sure fire way of not getting a place at Oxbridge for MFL is a personal statement trying to include why the applicant wants to study law rather than. Ditto for the converse.

What do people think of applying for slightly different language combinations at different universities? Are MFL departments going to see that as a negative and how does it affect the personal statement?

I’m not sure why anyone would want to do this? What is the advantage? Trying to get a place on less popular courses? If anyone wants to do Czech or similar, just go for it. Again most people write a PS based on the actual languages and why they appeal. I don’t think they write a pick and mix PS that’s not clear about reasons for studying the languages. Just my opinion but it seems a muddled approach.

If she does law first (as I did- LLB I did) then she will have less studying afterwards, but it will make no difference to career chances. 50% of lawyers read law first in England. My lawyers daughters didn't do law first. On the other hand having Oxbridge (IF she can get in - it is a bit of a lottery) will definitely be a good thing for law. It is a bit complex to apply to Oxbridge for one subject and another subject elsewhere so I would take a decision - law or not and then have the same degree on the application. I tihnk 7% of the biggest law firms take people from each of Oxford and Cambridge and 5% somewhere like Bristol (where some of my lawyer children went - none of my children tried Oxbridge).

If she wants less student debt/cost for parents etc then if she will do well enough, try for a law place somewhere like Durham , Bristol etc then I would do that. She will need to do the LNAT - special law entrance exam for law too.

That then means if a law firms sponsors her later (you apply during your first degree) they would not require her to do the two term PGDL course as she has an LLB and instead she just then does a term of SQE1 course, SQE1 exam and then the same SQE2 courses every one does.

There is a useful chart the City Consortium of law firms have produced www.slaughterandmay.com/media/wrtioxgk/city-consortium-ccp-flyer.pdf which sets out the stages and steps. The quickest route is read law at university and apply for her 2 years of training during her degree- all the deadlines are on firms' websites - they recruit years ahead, and after her law degree then do the law conversion and SQE1 and 2 courses and exams.

If speed and money is not an issue then a 4 year language degree and then the law conversion etc is fine too but be aware that the post grad masters loan and what it can be used for and when used up can then be an issue - I think BPP are doing a 12 months PDGL and SQE1 and 2 prep course so I suppose that could be done with a masters loan were she to do languages first. BPP's post grad courses for LLB students and non law graduates are at www.bpp.com/courses/law/postgraduate/sqe.

In theory you do not have to do SQE course at all - just the exams which cost about £4k but that is a more complicated topic for this thread.

You didn’t have access to the loan previously. Your employer paid for conversion after a non law degree. Does that no longer apply?

@rheafern my daughter has an offer from Oxford to ready MFL (deferred to 2023) and then intends to be a barrister. She was always clear she wanted to read MFL rather than law and it is a normal route to go into law afterwards. She loved mock trials and committed to human rights / refugee issues and spending next year in part volunteering in Europe with a charity in that sector - with visa and accommodation via being an au pair.

MFL is less competitive but you do need to be super enthusiastic about literature for the interviews at O- she was grilled heavily on all the off curriculum books she'd read and detailed on her PS plus value of translation etc. The interviews were a tougher ride than all the youtube videos suggested. MLAT and LAT also worth prepping for as grammar is well above normal A Level whatever they say.

Good luck in making the decision.

("You didn’t have access to the loan previously. Your employer paid for conversion after a non law degree. Does that no longer apply?" Those very few who manage to get a training contract at a law firm that pays the post grad fees do indeed still have that under the new system too. Currently most do not have law firm sponsorship so either obtain one of the new masters loans - you can get on so eg currently GDL or LPC year but not both, or a commercial loan or worked to save for the course etc. Many law firms have never paid the post grad fees for their trainee solicitors although the big firms do. IN fact that is one reason the new system has been put in place although it might mean people do not pay for good courses, are able to qualify with 2 years of legal services work at up to 4 different places including voluntary work and then find on qualification they cannot get a job - in other words the new system may just have moved the bottle neck from getting a training contract - the current position to getting a decent newly qualified job)

@Xenia
I was really talking about top firms. I know the lesser lights didn’t sponsor but the magic circle have contracts with the training companies/universities and their money talks. It’s their trainees who do the fast track.

@Juja. I don’t think DD listed much she’s read on her PS when she applied to Oxford. They cannot question you on it then. Of course it’s tough to get in. They do want to see expertise above the curriculum but it’s still a better bet than law, odds wise!

@TizerorFizz I agree MFL odds than Law or Law with French assuming you love MFL. @rheafern you can look up the Oxford odds here:
public.tableau.com/views/UniversityofOxford-AdmissionsStatistics2020ByCourse/Applications?:embed=y&:display_count=yes&:showTabs=y&:showVizHome=no

I also agree with your earlier posts - it would come across as muddled to apply for MFL for one Uni and Law for the others. Law is competitive everywhere so they want to see your passion for Law on PS while at O they want to see your passion for MFL.

@Juja
DD is a barrister. Lots of her contemporaries wanted to do Human Rights. Not one was successful in getting into that furls of work. It’s actually quite niche. So DD should widen her interests when the time comes. She needs to be strategic. Nearly every barrister will have more to offer than a degree.