Law at Bristol or Modern Languages at Oxford (followed by SQE1&2)?

[rheafern]

Hi, hypothetical dilemma! DD is in Year 12 and wants to study Law. But she knows it's very competitive and it might make more sense to apply for Modern Languages (something she also loves) and then do SQE1&2. But then how would a degree in Law from another good university be and look like? I'm not from this country and I'm not sure about what it really means to have an Oxford degree in your CV. Any views? Thanks very much!

@ghislaine, that sounds super interesting! I'll show her tomorrow. Thank you!

My daughter did a history degree with an internship at a law firm in the summer after her second year. They then offered her a job and she's now doing the PGDL fully funded by the law firm with a small "salary" for her to live on.

Several of the Scottish Universities offer joint Language /Common Law degrees ( Common law- ie able to practice within England/Wales/US/Canada/India/Australia/NZ);
www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/commonlaw/#lawatglasgow
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/details/common-law-with-german-language-llb/56985522

I do hope Oxbridge filters out applicants who apply to read MFL in their home languages. It’s patently easier for them. However why not apply for French and an ab initio language? There’s obviously challenge in that. Other students will be at Oxford doing MFL they started in y7 or Y8 or even later. So you could argue they have more talent than someone who has learnt MFL from birth?

As DD has a MFL degree and is a barrister, I know it’s perfectly possible. Friends’ DS is magic circle lawyer with French/German degree from Cambridge. You should do a law degree if you want to but DD always felt MFL was her top subject for uni. I’m not sure what conversion course is now in place for barristers but it has not been a disadvantage to have done MFL.

I think DD would have known she wasn’t going to be a commercial lawyer. Just not her thing. Personality, interests, areas of law you like best tend to become the drivers for a career choice and specialism. The main thing is to be able to evaluate your strengths and be realistic.

@rheafern
I meant to add: go for Oxford as top choice and then Durham, Warwick, Nottingham, UCL or Bristol. Add a MFL to law? It really doesn’t matter as the selection tests are looking for numerous attributes. After all, they choose people with no law at all! She should do what she enjoys.

It would be difficult to write a strong personal statement for a University application to cover Law and French/Arabic.

As in, if she was planning to apply for French/Arabic at Oxford and Law at 4 other Universities.

Law firms care about results and universities. They don’t care whether someone has done a law degree or not. At all. 50% of trainees at top firms generally haven’t done law degrees. So she should choose what gives her the best shot at getting into Oxford and/or doing well elsewhere, which is likely whatever she is most passionate about.

Oxbridge wouldn’t penalise her for speaking other languages at home as long as she wasn’t applying to study those particular languages.

@HarrietM87

People do read MFL at Oxford when they have learned a language from birth at home. (Parent from the MFL country and MFL teacher). Most holidays spent with grandparents in the country in question. Someone we know did. It’s easy to hide if the surname is English and no one asks. My friend did exactly the same. Personally I think it should be stopped but I applaud the OP if her dd reads other languages.

I forgot: apply for MFL or Law. The ps will be impossible to write otherwise. The top universities read them. There might be options to do Law and French. Don’t over complicate what she applies for and don’t do Scottish law. English Law is is the most use and it’s easier to stick to English universities.

Well as you say, those individuals have deliberately hidden the truth. If they were up front about it, it would count against them in the admissions process (which is what I said).

It doesn’t sound like the OP’s daughter intends to study her own languages anyway.

@CherryMaple @TizerorFizz it is possible to submit separate personal statements, if the university permits it. The student should ask. This year I have found A LOT of universities have accepted this.

Agree combined honours course sounds like a good idea. I’d say any Russell Group university would be good enough for most Law Firms. In fact, many Firms are now actively targeting non RG institutions to pursue social mobility targets. However in reality, if it’s the right course and uni for you, RG does still have a certain prestige. An Oxbridge degree obviously gives an edge but it shouldn’t be at the expense of finding the right course, IMO.

Degrees in modern languages at places like Oxford are focussed on using acquired language skills to study literature in that language. If that If that is what she likes most from her A level studies then that’s fine. If not, then she should stick to her original choice of a law degree.

The right course is always the top 10 universities. The law firms don’t target lower tariff universities in terms of giving these alumni preferential treatment. They still have to get through the entrance tests. It’s still the case that the universities mentioned in my earlier post have way more success in the London firms. Manchester is known to be the best university for regional employment/training. So knowing what type of law you are aiming for and where should inform choice of university. In addition aiming for the very top is never a bad thing and even lower ranking RG isn’t a great idea when DD could do better. Always aim high. The course and university will be respected and it won’t matter if it’s MFL or Law.

Although there are financial implications with an extra two years of study on the MML route. Would be an issue for some people

If she wants to read law then I would say apply to Oxford for law. Don't try to game things, could easily backfire, also why settle for a second best choice of subject? Makes no sense to me. I'd strongly advise my DC to apply to Oxford for law in the same situation.

There is the issue of 1:10 getting in for Law and 1:3 for MFL. Some people who think they are better at MFL as opposed to a subject they are slightly unsure about do opt for MFL. Some DC have to play the odds and apply for a course where their known strengths lie.

I do agree though. The route to employment is longer but it can be very fulfilling to speak and appreciate languages as well as having an interest in Law. No one route suits everyone. I know my DD would not have felt a complete person without doing MFL at degree level. It’s what makes her who she is. As indeed her friends who studied music, classics, history etc feel they benefitted from those degrees. The beauty of law is that you can pursue other interests and talents first.

Perhaps ypur daughter could consider the joint LLB with King's - a four year LLB degree with two years studying at King's & two years at the University of Paris. I believe they offer the same with a partner German University..

@Soggybiscuits17
What advantage does that course give? None really.

[quote TizerorFizz]@Soggybiscuits17
What advantage does that course give? None really.[/quote]
@TizerorFizz, I might be wrong, but it could make sense as it would add an international perspective to a Law degree and fit in with her interests in languages and a possible future international career.

Only if she wants that. My DD did MFL snd is quite happy here. Others have done MFL and then converted to law and worked abroad for magic circle firm. It makes no odds really. But she should decide what she wants. Is being in EU vital?you still have to qualify somewhere.

@TizerorFizz

Only if she wants that. My DD did MFL snd is quite happy here. Others have done MFL and then converted to law and worked abroad for magic circle firm. It makes no odds really. But she should decide what she wants. Is being in EU vital?you still have to qualify somewhere.

Yes, I will talk to her later. I don't think it would be ideal to choose mixed Law degrees with Languages or experiences abroad just to try to have a PS that made sense. On the other hand, I think she might be genuinely interested in that sort of thing. In terms of languages that could be useful for a Law career, would anyone have a view on that?

The dual qualification degree programmes offered by the likes of QM and KCL are that students get to study law and language simultaneously, thus broadening their skills and career prospects. If you study MFL and then qualify into law via the SQE then after 4/5 years you are qualified in England. If you take the dual qualification route, then after the same period of time you are qualified in two jurisdictions. This opens up career prospects for the individual without sacrificing employability.

Oxford offers a four year BA in law with a year in Europe although personally I’d find dual qualification with full language immersion more attractive.

I would say that working abroad for an English firm often doesn’t mean you are doing foreign law, you are doing English law in a foreign land.

Any language would be useful. Just look at where major firms have their offices across the world. I have to say that having an excellent command of English would be top of my list though. So many graduates do not appreciate the nuances of language, and in the end, this is the foundation of law. It’s less about feelings or even facts than it is about words.

@ghislaine, that's great advice. In the end, English is what really matters. And if she has an advantage at home with the foreign languages, there's definitely a big disadvantage as we don't speak English with her. It has never affected her grades in English, for example, but it will always be an issue. But then the detachment you have to develop when you are learning three languages at the same time can also be helpful when you are trying to be very precise (or not so precise!).