Applying for law degree the year after sixth form (with grades)

[70smillie]

I have a DD who has set her heart on studying law. She's currently in year 12 and a perfectionist. I'm concerned that she's heading for a meltdown as she's becoming obsessed with the process of choosing a university, reading background info on law for possible interviews (she's interested in Oxbridge) and getting the highest predicted grades. Plus she has a job. She's starting to not see friends etc which isn't healthy.

So, my question is whether universities such as Oxbridge and Russell Group frown upon applicants who do their A levels and then apply for law with their grades as they have an advantage in being able to focus on their application.

It all seems so far from my 1980s experience (admittedly not law).

The reason for my question is to try and relieve the pressure she's putting on herself so she can focus on her A levels but still have a normal life with friends, keep her job etc.

Either is fine. If she wants to get on with her legal career (if that is her aim) then not having a gap year gets her closer to earnings. Eg I did A levels a year young at 17 as was a year young through school so at university reading law aged 17 and graduated in law at 20.

She can certainly apply after - eg my silbling went to Oxbridge and his school in those old days did "7th term Oxbridge" - an extra 7th term in the sixth form after A levels to get you ready for Oxbridge entrance in that final term. My other sibling did not use that process as our school did not go it and went to Oxbridge right from school so applied in upper sixth.

Tell your daughter by the way 50% of London City lawyers at top firms do not to law as a first degree and convert to law after and if she might get into a better university for a subject other than law tactically she might find that a possible route or if she is likely to do very well even applying for law then stick with that plan as for me it was a really interesting degree.

I think this is normal. If you want to practice law as a barrister (which I assume she wants to do) then you absolutely need to nail the applications while in Year 12. Support her with this by offering to take on some of the notetaking / research responsibilties of the uni search so she can focus on her studies & gets breaks. A lot of barristers / judges etc come from a family that has a legal background and so have the huge advantage of family help, contacts, or knowledge of the system - if you really want to help her try and start learning about law so you can keep an eye on jobs etc for her.

Not suggesting you go this far but my aunt is a nurse and on her days off she started calling university admissions teams to start building a database for her son to work off of while he was at work. She got all sorts of info not just about the course but also about the career & the kinds of jobs that would support him to build a better application for contracts.

I would also research how much actual F2F teaching each university that she is interested in is offering. The law school at Leeds is mostly online and they have no plans to change this any time soon.

I would echo pp who pointed out that it isn’t necessary to do law at university to be a lawyer.

Both dc want to be lawyers, both DH and I are senior lawyers. Neither of mine are applying for law degrees and I didn’t do a law degree. Dh did joint hons with accountancy. Both dh and I have benefitted from studying something other than law since our other subjects have helped us manage businesses/people

She can apply in y13 or in a gap year. From about March onwards 6th Forms start upping their info re applications, UCAS and personal statements and use of Unifrog or similar. Many want first draft personal statements done over the Summer holidays even if they aren't going to apply until in their gap year. Whilst there is a lot to do all students are in the same situation. If she wants to be a solicitor and is of Oxbridge ability then she should check the Chambers guide (I will attach link below) to inform her choices and this will cut out a lot of unnecessary research as such.

www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

@70smillie
I didn’t read from you that she wanted to be a barrister. Does she? That’s more difficult than being a solicitor in many ways as far fewer are taken on every year.

Regarding degrees, don’t necessarily do any subject. Anyone going into law these days should either do law or an academic subject. Classics is great, MFL, History and sciences are fine. Steer clear of criminology snd a few others. If she wants to do law, that’s fine too.

She would do best to read what @SeasonFinale has posted. The Law still takes the majority of applicants from Russell Group universities. Below Oxbridge, (and she can only apply to one) she must consider Durham and Bristol plus a few others. Manchester is the best for regional solicitor jobs. Birmingham works well for that area too.

So she has decisions to make. High powered city solicitor, regional solicitor or the Bar. The Bar has a lot of different areas of expertise so you must know where your talents lie . It’s vital.

What isn’t vital right now is her paid work . It’s unlikely to help much with her career. Getting the A levels and being good enough to get to Oxbridge should be a priority and they will want to know why she wants to do this subject. So she might be better advised to think about this.

When she’s at university she will need to decide barrister or solicitor and get work experience to back up her applications. There’s also a load of deadlines for vacation schemes, scholarships etc. Also volunteering and getting the best law cv she can muster is vital. Everyone else will!

For now, narrow down uni choices to elite RG only. Then there’s far less research to do!

Disagree that she has to apply to Russell group and that Durham and Bristol are a must. Also disagree that Manchester is best for regional solicitor jobs. More jobs in Birmingham, but in any event she will need to move to where the jobs are. That’s always been the case with law.

The only reason a good proportion of lawyers have been to oxbridge or a Russell group university is because above all lawyers need to be extremely intelligent and academic with excellent exam results. A pupil who has these is more likely to go to a high ranking university.

But we don’t recruit based on university much anymore. The legal profession is under the same pressure as everyone else to increase access to a broad spectrum of people and to blind sift CVs

@User76745333
You cannot disagree with facts! These are the facts regarding the supply of lawyers. Manchester is streets ahead for recruitment in regional areas. For London it’s still best to go for elite RG if you can. The recruitment data is not showing non RG gaining much ground. So there might be more “diverse” lawyers regarding background but they are not going to non RG universities. Employers might not look at university but entry tests still ensure the brightest and the best get the jobs. A level results can do exactly the same. So anyone wanting to work as a solicitor or barrister should always give themselves the best chance and the top 10 universities don’t change much. It’s incorrect to say otherwise.

OP three of my DC went to Oxford and are lawyers. Two read Law, one History. They did go straight to Oxford from Y13 but plenty of their peers didn't. Two are solicitors (one went from a Magic Circle firm after qualifying and being offered an associate's job to human rights, one is at a Magic Circle firm, just qualified and starting as an associate after a few weeks of travel, the third is a barrister in a strong London set). The issue about Y13 or 14 is very minor, except to say that sometimes predicted grades are starrier than what is actually achieved, so a bit of a gamble not to apply (why not apply anyway and see what happens?) and secondly - much more importantly in terms of pressure - she really doesn't need to read 'background' for the purposes of interviews. That's not the form the Oxford interviews tend to take. She should relax for sure, and not make work for herself where its not required. Read, sure, but only what she is actively interested in and no more. People assume more is required for Oxford than it actually is, in terms of prep. To some extent you either have it or you don't, which is quite reassuring for those who want a normal healthy life in sixth form, which is clearly what you want for your DD.

What I’m saying is that you’re correlating the wrong way Tizer.

You’re saying law firms only recruit from RG and oxbridge. I’m saying the majority of younger lawyers are still coming from those universities because that’s where the kids with the better grades tend to go. But that will change as blind recruitment becomes more prevalent and it’s certainly not the case that the ops child needs to go to a Russell group university to get a training contract. In fact our HR teams are actively pushing back and trying to shift their recruitment profiles away from those institutions, much like the top universities are doing with their independent/state mixes (so the university selection methodology is going to come back and bite them on the bum).

But hey you know best as usual because your dd is a baby barrister..

I should maybe say that those three DC of mine also worked in a paid job through sixth form and had a perfectly normal social life. Not seeing friends in Y12 bodes very badly indeed and could suggest that she's unhappy rather than feels that that's what's required to get into Oxford or Cambridge.

User if the most able kids tend to go to the 'top' unis, why would that have a significant impact on recruitment at the top firms? That wouldn't make sense for the firms. The uni blind recruitment thing has had the opposite effect of that intended in some places - even more Oxbridge entrants than before.

I think we’re probably veering off the OPs point but certainly what I’m seeing from two large firms is HR pushing other institutions, trying to change the diversity profile etc. My point was just that it isn’t right to imply that you have to have been to a RG university and that certainly isn’t a healthy message to give to the Ops dd who already seems to be struggling with the pressure.

@User76745333
What a nastiy little pop at me. I assume you have name changed. Like @goodbyestranger, I do have a DD who is a barrister. I wasn’t necessarily basing my advice on her. I’m also rather in the camp of some have what it takes and others don’t. The ones that do tend to go to RG. You might not like that advuve but it’s true. These young people also don’t get over pressurised. That to some extent is why some people successfully soak up work and perform well under pressure.

You might also be surprised how much a baby barrister can earn. At least I’ve seen a young person go through what’s needed, although not as often as goodbyestranger. I’ve certainly been aware of the careers of others doing law too.

I’m also bemused as to why a young person interested in Oxbridge would suddenly want the university of “Nowhere”? It makes little sense. Especially for law.

I agree with this fairly pointless argument about non Oxbridge unis. The DD wants to go to Oxbridge. These threads always up up in a spiral of oh you don't need to go to Oxbridge to get into a top law firm or top set of chambers. well obviously you don't, but you might well want to go to Oxford or Cambridge for the three years it can give you on the teaching front or indeed any other front. It doesn't harm to go there.

I agree it's fairly pointless is what I mean. The OP barely got any square on replies to her post before it went straight to uni blind recruitment. The way to reduce pressure for a kid who wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge is probably best done by saying stop endless and not very productive prep rather than telling them to not aim high.

Sorry I was busy yesterday and didn't have time to come back.

She definitely wants to study law as a subject. She genuinely finds it interesting - she's enjoying her research into the subject (a bit more than her A levels). There isn't another subject she wants to do more. She isn't particularly interested in being a barrister.

She is passionate about her paid work. She does private sports coaching and is well paid (for her age). She worked really hard on this as soon as GCSEs finished to build her profile and genuinely loves it.

My worry its only March of year 12 and she has a huge tendency to over prepare but previously she's only had one thing to focus on at a time.

She had a bad test recently and the cracks started to show. This is when she seemed to decide she should start not seeing her friends at weekends. She's not unhappy with her friendships at all.

I was wondering if I can offer a pressure release of suggesting she applies with her grades, thereby allowing her to focus on actually getting those grades rather than doing so much extra reading, preparing/sitting the LNAT - of course people say you don't need to prepare that much for the LNAT but not preparing is not in her playbook at all!

So really my question was just whether, if she does start to meltdown, there's a disadvantage in the selection processes if I suggest slowing down and applying when she has her grades.

I should also say she doesn't go to a private school. There doesn't seem to be anyone at her sixth form who knows about law applications specifically, we aren't a family of lawyers. She is getting her information online and is also stressed she doesn't have any supra curriculars to offer (I only heard of this word this week), hence the endless reading.

Friendships don't need to go for the LNAT OP! Please emphasize strongly that she should not overdo it - it not only won't help it could be positively bad. Piffle to supra curriculars, the tutors could care less about that, so another thing not to fret about. I would certainly advise applying in Y12 anyhow - she could be pleasantly surprised by an Oxbridge offer. That really takes the pressure for Oxford off, because the offer is then only AAA. That's a really good offer for a top uni for law, no annoying A* to stress about.

You might also be surprised how much a baby barrister can earn

I wouldn’t be surprised because I’m an actual lawyer.

And what an awful comment about “the university of nowhere”. The Russell group is a marketing group. Universities that are not part of that marketing group are not the ‘university of nowhere’. St Andrew’s, Bath, Lancaster and others are all top ranking universities and not part of the RG.

Anyway back to the OPs question, yes you can take a year out but it will be best to ensure she us does something useful and relevant with that year. And if she’s truly struggling with the pressure it might be worth trying to nudge her to think more widely about her options since law is a very pressurised profession.

Of course if she prefers Cambridge then she'll have to bag at least one A*, but even so, less pressure than working away with a view to getting three, for a Y14 application.

Its worth bearing in mind that there are other options to those with a law degree and that the OPs year 12 dd doesn't have to decide now whether she wants to be a solicitor or barrister!.

A friend of mine is an in house lawyer, another works for a regulatory body that's still very much involved in law. Both have done v well and enjoy their jobs.