Applying for law degree the year after sixth form (with grades)

[70smillie]

I have a DD who has set her heart on studying law. She's currently in year 12 and a perfectionist. I'm concerned that she's heading for a meltdown as she's becoming obsessed with the process of choosing a university, reading background info on law for possible interviews (she's interested in Oxbridge) and getting the highest predicted grades. Plus she has a job. She's starting to not see friends etc which isn't healthy.

So, my question is whether universities such as Oxbridge and Russell Group frown upon applicants who do their A levels and then apply for law with their grades as they have an advantage in being able to focus on their application.

It all seems so far from my 1980s experience (admittedly not law).

In that case, no-one from the GDL would ever get a training contract or pupillage. They have done 1 year of law. Some do a masters of course but not everyone. I think there are more factors taken into account.

I think I'm missing something Tizer. The undergrad subject is irrelevant to a large degree, it's the thinking skills which matter, which will be affected enormously by the quality of teaching. University should be where students learn to think properly.

GDL year and then LPC year - so non law graduates have 2 years studying law and law graduates 4.

One reason we have just moved for solicitors to the SQE1 and 2 exams instead of LPC etc is to have an objective standard with both sets of exams marked by one body - Kaplan no matter where your first degree was done. The first results of SQE1 are out although most people have not yet moved to that brand new system and it will be interesting to see how it changes things. I think the first SQE1 results had a slightly lower pass rate of about 52% than for the GDL which is about 58% pass rate at first sitting. Not surprisingly the higher your degree 1st, 2/1 , 2/2 seems to have correlated to how likely you are to pass the SQE1 exam.

I totally agree about thinking skills at university. Some subjects are better for this than others.

Which actually brings us back to the DD in question not over-burdening herself with law books right now..I don’t think DD picked up a law book until she was 22. Then it was needs must!

Yes - and although my advice was for OP's DD to read only what interests her, not what she feels she ought to read but finds dull - your DD applied for a different subject. That's a different thing entirely. My DS who read History didn't even think of law until after he graduated. The two DDs who made successful applications for Law did read a few books but none at all of the 'Intro to Law' type things, just a few things they thought they might like. I remember one book being discarded very quickly indeed as being way, way too heavy and dull. So another piece of advice would be: don't persevere if something is heavy going, it's just not worth it.

Apologies if I've got you wrong Tizer, but another poster said barrister. Not sure she's that much of a baby one any more. She's either the same year of call as my own DD or one ahead. I think mine even has a pupil herself now, not quite sure!

2016 call.

Same Tizer, although I had to check the chambers' website to find out. But she then did a year at the Court of Appeal so is a year behind your own DD for that reason. The years flash by.

They certainly do! DD had pupillage lined up before BPTC. Her boyfriend did LLM at Cambridge in his pre pupillage year. As I think we said, planning this and considering options takes time and maturity.

@Ozanj

I think this is normal. If you want to practice law as a barrister (which I assume she wants to do) then you absolutely need to nail the applications while in Year 12. Support her with this by offering to take on some of the notetaking / research responsibilties of the uni search so she can focus on her studies & gets breaks. A lot of barristers / judges etc come from a family that has a legal background and so have the huge advantage of family help, contacts, or knowledge of the system - if you really want to help her try and start learning about law so you can keep an eye on jobs etc for her.

Not suggesting you go this far but my aunt is a nurse and on her days off she started calling university admissions teams to start building a database for her son to work off of while he was at work. She got all sorts of info not just about the course but also about the career & the kinds of jobs that would support him to build a better application for contracts.

Hi @Xenia, DD is in year 12, like OP's, and wants to work in Law. Would you say that it's preferable, let's say, to do Modern Languages in Oxford followed by SQE1&2 or to do a Law Degree in Bristol or Durnham. I know there are many other aspects to consider, but if we think about career prospects would the Oxford degree still look better? I'm not from this country and I'm feeling a bit lost on how advise DD. Thanks!!

Good questions. I just answered them on the other thread with SQE in its name.
Oxford degree would look better but she loses 2 years just about (or gains extra 2 years of study if you look at it that way round). One reason I did an LLB was I wanted to get on with earning and life (may be that i unusual) so I did LLB for 3 years, then the compulsory law post grad. Then I was for 2 years a paid working trainee solicitor. If she did languages that would be 4 years at university and at least a 2 term PGDL in order to catch up with a 3 year LLB.

I agree with last post, son now has law contract with LPC being paid for and sponsored, at no point in his lengthy application did his degree or university feature, even at the interview he was told not to name his university or school etc. to avoid bias. At that point they didn't know his age, his sex, his education other than he had a 2.1 or higher and had passed the GDL. He got the law contract after months of tests and final interview. His advice is get as much relevant work experience or internships in Uni holidays as possible - one to be sure Law is for you and two it really helps at interview stage. Because of Covid he only got 2 weeks of law work experience. The process of getting graduate jobs is far tougher than Uni applications, school entrance exams (where applicable) etc. 5000 applicants for 50 jobs not unusual. Witnessing rejection after rejection is horrid, DS says playing elite sport helped him cope with the failures and rejections; eventually he got a job he is really excited about. Some places will still no doubt see the Uni and favour top few and Oxbridge over others, and logically hard working super bright likely get highest scores in the tests set by law firms. Your DD should study a degree that excites her, if Law is the one fantastic, saves time and possibly money on the GDL, (DS paid £10,000 from year of working himself), a Law degree is also favoured in Corporate banking, regulatory bodies, charities etc. and make sure the 4 other Uni choices offer equally well taught and interesting Law degrees - Oxbridge helps, but isn't the be all and end all when not all top companies ask what Uni you attended!

I meant agree with previous post...

GDL has changed in the last year and now some offer the chance to do it as a masters by writing a dissertation, this allows for graduate funding, DS didnt want more debt so didn't take this route. He and his 'classmates' did GDL all online because of Covid, some lectures simply didn't happen, the guidance was poor, and many have complained. You have to pass all exams - if you fail one and retake you get a pass and cannot get a merit or distinction. Some top law firms will favour those with a distinction, because they can, with so many studying law and many more studying GDL. Some firms sponsor GDL, hence getting a summer internship where they will pay for GDL and LPC. DS's friends have varying levels of success, one still not got a contract and working as paralegal on just above minimum wage, one with two internships got law contract offers from both (Politics, Durham), another law contract (Linguistics at UCL) - both one year away from six figure salaries, but both working up to 14 hour days and given up sport for now. DS currently legal assistant on £10.20 an hour until LPC starts - would be impossible to do if he didn't live at home.

@Juneday
My DD is a barrister after doing MFL degree. I would say her acquisition of languages makes her who she is. In the same way that sport enriches the lives of others. For most, sport can be done alongside another degree, but MFL is a degree. The year abroad is also invaluable for resilience and confidence.

I recognise the hours young grads work in law firms. Dd has friends who work hard and play hard. It’s a way of life snd they are making £200,000 pa before they are 30. You really really have to want it.

Employers set so many tests now, they tendon confident that they will get the brightest and the best and, like it or not, I bet they still take a good chunk from Oxbridge! They will have collected a huge amount of info about applicants and the cream rises. Are we really saying law grads with CCC from Worcester will rock up in any number at Magic Circle firms? I just don’t think it’s likely.

Distinction on the GDL is closely linked to educational attainment and university so of course these firms select the best.

Internships are vital in my view. They do pay an allowance for them so if unable to live at home, you rent a room and spend the money. You do have to be single minded but it’s perfectly ok to wait until after a MFL degree if that will make you a whole person. It took DD 6 years from starting her degree to Call as a barrister. The quickest would be 4 years but many will do other courses such as MLaw or work experience before they start on their career. So it inevitably is a slog for most and success cannot be guaranteed. However getting what you need on the cv snd having the nous to pass all the tests at least gives young people a chance, but there won’t be large numbers in big law firms with even BBB from a former polytechnic.

Juneday, well done to your son. My daughter was similarly sponsored through GDL and LPC a few years ago. I went through 2 of the twins' groups for this term last week and put on another thread my research - of those who had training contracts their type of schooling (boarding, day or private, state grammar or other) and which university.

My did the PGDL (the BPP brand new one which started 2020/21 and was 100% online due to height of covid times) ) last academic year and now they are on the LPC with BPP which ends in June 2022 and is face to face.
This is some of the last cohort to do the LPC and my son has a friend starting the PGDL/SQE1 course and Kaplan set SQE1 exam and then on to SQE2 this September.

So anyone going to university now needs to look up the SQE1 rules IF they might want to be a solicitor rather than a barrister, but it will not affect the general advice to read law if you prefer as I did or a different subject if you want and in the best university you can.

Some law firms withdraw the training contract offer if you fail one exam even if passed on a resit. A point for sixth formers to realise is that many law firms want all your grades even in year 1 of university in all modules so do not slack off in year 1 whether a law degree or not.

The main other advice I give people is look at the timings on law firm and barrister' websites as the firms and chambers recruit years ahead. So many students do apply during their first degree, not once they graduate.

one of my lawyer daughters had a gap year after 3 year degree, GDL and LPC - so after 5 years and worked abroad but had her training contract to come back to - she had a lovely year abroad - ski resort work and work in Antigua etc. It was a nice time to have a gap year and then back to London for the training contract with the firm who sponsored her GDL and LPC.

The other brilliant thing a year abroad can give, as well as language, is the chance to study other subjects. It broadens you as a person. Gives you more to talk about. Law can seem very narrow after years of study but getting something else into your cv is always worth it.

Xenia, my DS at BPP too, but took a year to get contract for LPC which he will now do at UoL, looking forward to it but realistic about hard work for another year. He will have an allowance but having had a gap year in HK also desperate to move out - so is saving up for a house share as the sponsorship isn't enough for London rents. Having said that I was telling him when I moved to London 3 or us lived in a 2 bed flat - and that was with a full time job junior job in the city - much better than commuting from parent's home despite being worse off :). I agree good point about getting good grades all through the degree and they looked at each score on GDL, DS wasn't sure he wanted to go into Law until final year of Uni I think - but he is very happy to be going that direction and impatient to start using his brain and learning new skills. I hope DD on OP get's where she wants or if not Oxford another well taught course that keeps her interest and passion. Just heard of DH's friend DS with top scores in GSCE and predicted A levels and good PS, no Uni offers at all. But I do believe with perseverance and determination and supportive parents ... things work out in the end.

I applied to 139 London firms in 1982 during said period of worst unemployment for 50 years in the last year of my law degree and had 25 interviews before getting my training contract in year 3 of my law degree. Not sure if that is the worst strike rate from law interviews ever but it was such a relief to get the offer.

The Juneday son did the PDGL with my sons then (although it was 100% online so the only people may twins saw on it was the other twin and their school friend when they were allowed daily walks under covid restrictions. At least on the LPC they have been going in for 2 terms and meeting other students for seminars.

Luckily DS found out a few familiar faces on PGDL at same time and local, they met a couple of times when Covid restrictions allowed to revise and compare notes, after, again post lockdown they all went out to celebrate - then all got covid! None seriously ill thankfully, they were just pleased to get out and socialise a little.

I went through 2 of the twins' groups for this term last week and put on another thread my research - of those who had training contracts their type of schooling (boarding, day or private, state grammar or other) and which university

I'm still a bit mystified about what conclusions can be sensibly drawn from this research Xenia. You said that the conclusion was that mothers who work should pay school fees but I just don't see how that's any sort of logical conclusion, but I'd really like you to explain, because I must be being dim.

Juneday I don't recognise several things in what you say, and have two DC who got training contracts/ associate job offers with Magic Circle firms and another DC who is a barrister (post pupillage, and taken on for a tenancy at the same set).

I have to say that university was very much mentioned at all the interviews, particularly one of the Magic Circle firms where a recent controversy at one of the Oxford colleges formed a large chunk of the discussion. I think it's useful to distinguish between the name Oxford/ Cambridge and the educational advantage which those two universities arguably confer on their students, which is overwhelmingly due to the method of teaching. I would assume that it must help at interview, where these students have in effect been quizzed every week of their university career, even if the name isn't mentioned (I'm dubious about the so-called blindness of applications. Many involve references from tutors....).

I am not making it up. DS asked not to say which Uni or school at Zoom interview after many tests etc. self funded GDL from year of working in HK. Friends took different routes including funded GDL following internships where Uni, UCL & Durham were known; another we know Liverpool for Law degree and 3 years paralegal now secured training contract. DS also worked in recruitment in HK for investment banking where they only look at Oxbridge, LSE, Harvard so yes top Universities still get top jobs. Equally DH godson with first from Oxford, couldn’t get a graduate job so gone back into education. And another friend’s neice first from Oxford got law contract and said most others were Oxbridge, my cousins daughter first from Oxford now associate at top 50 London law firm. But there are law roles keen to have a Uni blind application. At interview I am sure DS was articulate, considered, knowledgeable and well read - but his state school teachers said that of him when he was 7! Some very capable bright children don’t apply to Oxbridge, some do but don’t get in. Some get in and struggle, some love it - but not getting in doesn't stop the chance of a good law career and I wouldn’t want OP to think it did. What I know of DS’ friends from Bath, UCL & Durham whom have secured very good training contracts, there are great opportunities for bright determined and hard working graduates.

Oh and friends DD secured training contract from what my DS says is top American law company paying silly money - state school and Edinburgh Uni.

Completely agree that there are lots of places open for bright students who didn't go to Oxbridge Juneday. 100%. No suggestion that you're making anything up. DS2 says there are a good number at the firm he's at (top Magic Circle). He has an Oxford first too (not Law), as do plenty of his peers. Obviously that's not essential, there are other key attributes that sit alongside being bright, but in his case there was no obvious struggle to get offers from Magic Circle firms, same in the case of his sister. It seems that Oxbridge does help, but presumably that's because those kids are clever and used to interview situations rather than the Oxbridge name.