Computer Science or Maths ?

[User11010866]

DC is good at maths and programming. Which subject will be a good choice between maths and CS. It seems that CS is very popular in US and Maths is popular in UK. DC doesn't have a clear favourite of the two.

I would have thought that applying for 'Mathematics and Computer Science' (which most universities offer as an undergraduate subject these days) would be an obvious course of action in his position -- he can pursue both lines of study and use his optional module choices to reflect his interests as his degree studies progress.

PP’s are correct that switching degree programmes within an institution is of unknown difficulty to outsiders.

I am recently retired from one of the institutions mentioned and switching degree programmes is difficult. Every year would see students who had been advised to accept a place on one school/department and ask switch to another once there. For maths and CS it (almost) never happened.

in one school…

Another question. DC said the CS is still one option. Is the A-level computing necessary?

Generally not, Maths and possibly FM are more important. But each CS School will have A Level recommendations on its website

Maths, FM, Physics and Music are currently on the A-level option list. No university lists Computing as the subject for computing courses though. Just wonder Computing may be more relevant with CS and if it is worth changing the music to computing.

If you already have 3 good subjects, I wouldn't stress about the fourth either way.

I work in tech ( big tech ) feel free to PM .

Personally I'd say depending on the course quality / content and institution for CS - I'd lean towards maths . A mathematical brain can pick up the CS if they have the interest - also gives more options further down the line .

I'd only recommend CS at a uni with a very strong programme / up to date content

@poolblue

my SS chose to do Computer Science at Warwick and is loving it. Opted for that over maths as he said the earning potential was better.

Not necessarily accurate - many people come into high earning software engineering roles with an academic background in maths not CS

Which year group is your ds in? I'd assumed he was in Yea 12, but it sounds like he might be in Year 11, given he hasn't firmed up which A levels he is taking. If he is in Year 11 or younger, his tastes and thoughts may well still evolve over the next year.

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Which year group is your ds in? I'd assumed he was in Yea 12, but it sounds like he might be in Year 11, given he hasn't firmed up which A levels he is taking. If he is in Year 11 or younger, his tastes and thoughts may well still evolve over the next year.

Year 11. Hesitant between the music and computing for the 4th A level option.

Even at A level, a good grade in maths is much more important than a computer science A level.

@stevalnamechanger

I work in tech ( big tech ) feel free to PM .

Personally I'd say depending on the course quality / content and institution for CS - I'd lean towards maths . A mathematical brain can pick up the CS if they have the interest - also gives more options further down the line .

I'd only recommend CS at a uni with a very strong programme / up to date content

Could you give me any more detail on what a cs degree with "a very strong programme/up to date content" looks like?

My ds is in year 12 and starting to think about Uni choices. We have been looking at the courses online but I dont know much about CS at all and my ds doesnt know about what skills and knowledge tech employers are looking for.

I’m a former Admissions Tutor in what I have characterised elsewhere on this Board as an ‘upper RGbut not super elite’ STEM School. I am not a fan of four A Levels. Imperial, a wonderful choice academically, is likely to make an offer on all four. But applicants who present three get an offer on three. How much Oxbridge take into account the existence of the fourth when making an offer on three (which is typical but not guaranteed) is a bit of a mystery. They also make plenty of offers to three A Level students. Especially with the option below.

We all, including Oxbridge, want to see what students can do at their best. Depth trumps breadth. So what about an EPQ instead of a fourth A Level? Should satisfy any implicit Oxbridge/Imperial/Warwick breadth concerns, but the timings can be co- ordinated with three A Levels. Anyone who has won coding competitions should be well placed to do a CS EPQ.

stevalnamechanger I don't dispute what you are saying, but Warwick themselves say that CS graduates earn more.

I agree that 3 A-levels plus an EPQ could be a good option.

I would look at the university prospectuses online. Most CS degrees don't need CS at A-level but some do. Many of the RG unis want Maths A-level but not all do. Bear in mind though that even if CS isn't required, they still want evidence of an interest in, and commitment to, the subject so he would have to have evidence of coding projects etc. and would be competing against students who do study CS A-level.
You could email the admissions tutors for advice too.

Having FM A-level is a good idea. It's hard and may help your DS to decide if he would rather do Maths or CS.

Good luck

I can only tell you our experience. Ds did 4 A levels, maths, further maths, Computer Science and Physics. He did apply to Cambridge for Computer Science and you sit the TMUA except Cambridge pay for it and the results go directly to them so it is called CTUMA.

He was also interviewed by Cambridge for Computer Science which was all maths. He had offers from 4 other RG unis but not Cambridge. No other uni wanted an entrance exam. He is now at Durham in his 1st year and got 4 x A* at A level.

Although they don't specifically state further maths for Computer Science at top unis they want it (Scottish Highers don't have an equivalent to fm) the vast majority of students applying will have it so it does put them at a disadvantage if they haven't taken it.

Ds says he thinks that it would be beneficial to take Computer Science A level to have a foundation knowledge to work on when you start uni. Ds knew this was something he was interested in and spent time from year 10 doing CS stuff in his free time. At Durham they all had to take a maths module as an "optional" extra.

I have a link for Cambridge Tripos from when Ds was looking.

www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1718/cst.pdf

Depends what he wants to do long term ? If he wants to be a programmer then that's the way forward otherwise maths is more transferable

Thanks for this thread! I also have a yr 12 DS not yet sure what he wants to do where maths and comp sci are very much in the picture, so this discussion is really helpful to me.

OP - Maths/FM/Physics + 1 other would seem highly appropriate for your son given the BMO performance you've referenced (especially given that this year's BMO2 has yet to be sat so he's done exceptionally well at a young age). I would not expect Maths and FM to be anywhere near 2 A levels' worth of effort for someone of his ability.

I get the impression that an EPQ is potentially least relevant for maths applications; but I do think there are some useful aspects to the process. My son is doing your DS's proposed subjects and an EPQ relevant to computer science (after much pushing to settle on a subject - I recognise the "not really interested in anything just yet" problem!). Now, his school doesn't offer computer science A level so he didn't have to make that choice, but he would have probably done music anyway. (hasn't completely ruled out applying for music)

I agree that pursuing a maths degree requires interest in the abstract; some of that can be gauged by what your teenagers are interested in talking about maths-wise, there is so much they can get access to online nowadays it is totally different to when I was their age and beyond bored with school maths before I chanced upon olympiad style work (got asked to sit a training selection paper, don't know by what route, a few months after the IMO had been held IN MY COUNTRY! and I'd never heard of it before ....)

For parents who don't have a lot of knowledge of maths, if your child can start telling you about stuff that seems to have nothing to do with maths-as-you-know-it, that's probably good sign that they might enjoy university maths!

I agree that the maths ability shown by your DS means Maths and FM should feel like less than two full A Levels to him. But you never can tell. Also, if he applies to C for Maths he will need to sit STEP and prepare for it; they will want a grade of 1 probably and even for him that will take some preparation. An EPQ gives him more control of his time in Y13 than a fourth A Level. Other top Maths Schools will also want STEP or MAT but the latter is taken in the autumn.

Thank you all for the comments. I have done some research and found that A- level Computing is not necessary for the computer science course in most of the universities. Even choosing CS, DC can still have music A level ( might or not EPQ computing)

OnTheBenchOfDoom, thank you very much for the link. It is very useful. Cambridge CS is extremely difficult to get in. I checked the data from 2016 to 2020. The offers rate of the Maths is 2.3,2.4, 2.3, 3.4 and 3.5 times of the CS.

Pythonesque Music is one of DC's choices not a very long time ago. He doesn't need music A-level for the music course as he has had two G8 instruments and soon the G8 theory. He just like music.

Cambridge CS is extremely difficult to get in. I checked the data from 2016 to 2020. The offers rate of the Maths is 2.3,2.4, 2.3, 3.4 and 3.5 times of the CS.

It certainly is difficult - though the difference versus maths isn't quite as much as that as you really need to compare the acceptance:application ratio rather than offers rate. This is because a heck of a lot of the mathematicians who get an offer fall at the STEP. More like a factor of 2 for 2020.

But for any Cambridge course it's true that the likeliest outcome for an applicant is that they'll be going somewhere else so definitely important to scope out the other options - fortunately lots of excellent alternatives.

maths degree requires interest in the abstract
I think those students who enjoy and get the abstract of maths won’t regret choosing a maths degree. It gives them the opportunity to explore and develop that ability at least for 3 to 4 more years. They may well regret choosing computer science as they can pick up the principles later fairly easily as indicated by stevalnamechanger.

A maths degree also allows the option of more advanced statistics, providing them with the tools for data science, AI and financial maths.

@poolblue

stevalnamechanger I don't dispute what you are saying, but Warwick themselves say that CS graduates earn more.

The sector is evolving quicker than any other, pay is artificially high in many jobs at the moment as there are a shortage of suitably skilled, qualified and experienced candidates; but that's due to change in the coming years as more people pursue qualifications in this field. I'd choose maths all day long and any day of the week and if interested consider a masters in something more specific. It shows a really strong capability for the fundamentals and won't ever become outdated.

The thing about 'programming' ... there are some fields where you absolutely need proper software engineers. But in other areas, the vital skill is some specialist domain knowledge. I've been 'programming' for a career of over 35 years - in my field the essential is a PhD in specific branches of chemistry, physics, biology or maths. Knowing what to write is vital, knowing how to write it better is good but 'good enough' may do, if that makes sense.