Seeking support/advice - possibly Dd dropping out Uni

[Monica53]

Hi

Seeking advice/support our Dd doing medicine and resitting year which has left her despondent/demotivated along with Covid not a good mix.

Now still home and doesn’t want to go back, stating if she drops out everyone will think she’s thick etc.. offered support and suggested speak to Uni tutors/well-being and also student finance -as she did foundation year so in effect now 3rd yr so not sure if she did some other course from
September nearer home would she get finance? . She is now really
Low and not called or done any actions to get suppprt/advice.

We’ve even suggested that take this year as revision due to lockdown year ? Not taken well . We’ve also said not everyone who starts Uni completes for one reason or another .

Thankyou for reading

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/allied-health-professionals/roles-allied-health-professions/roles-allied-health-professions

@Monica53
Some more information to give your DD
If she applies for one of below allied health care degrees at a Welsh unversity and commits to working in Wales for 2 years after she will be eligible for an NHS bursary which covers all tuition fees and help with living costs. Link is for Cardiff University but also applies to others including Wrexham that may be nearer home for her.

www.cardiff.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/funding/funding-your-healthcare-course/nhs-bursary

Diagnostic Radiography and Imaging (BSc)
Occupational Therapy (BSc/Postgraduate Diploma)
Nursing (BN)
Midwifery (BMid)
Radiotherapy and Oncology (BSc)
Physiotherapy (BSc)
Dental Therapy and Hygiene (BSc)
Dental Hygiene (DipHE)
Operating Department Practice (BSc).

@sendsummer Thankyou for Information- at present unsure if she drops out she’d want to go to Uni away from home - currently 5/6hrs drive away from home (1hr east jet flight). Totally unknown now - all we know is she hates Uni/blames Uni lack of support etc during Covid/lack of proper feedback regards resit of year and no connection with others who failed and resitting year - which would surely have been a support network in itself. I’ve woken this morning with a huge mix of emotions - however she needs to own this and make a firm decision with support from Uni who hopefully step up. Her MH is suffering as a mum I can see from the sidelines .Thankyou replying

OP,

In my years on Mitigating Circumstances panels we dealt with many students similar to your DD. You have a lot of good advice upthread, the most important being that people want to help but the initiative must come from your DD.

When she meets with her tutor on Wed it will be helpful if she can be specific about what isn’t working. Some of it will be down to her lack of concentration and depressive mindset and it will help a lot if she can own that. I think that people will be sympathetic to what I read as your DD’s perception that the cool group drink and party and because she doesn’t she feels excluded. (No one can address a vague complaint like ‘I hate this Uni’, so I hope she will skip that.) If she is struggling with MH or needs to be closer to home they may have ideas for her. The School can also help with other reasonable accommodation.

The main thing is that the more frank and proactive she can be, the better. She may even have a case for Mit Circs now: why not look up the requirements? Note that proof of a medical condition (eg depression) is usually required but sometimes the committee will delay for a reasonable time if it is in process.

The FY for Medicine is usually quite rigorous, so your DD’s success should be confidence building. Otherwise I know nothing about how Medical School works so I’ll not offer speculations.

I agree with PPs about the fabulous biomedical careers to be had with related degrees, but I wonder whether in her present state of mind your DD might see discussion of these, particularly within the family, as evidence of failure? Or I could be wrong.

I know from some of our students how miserable this can be. For all of you, I am sure. Good luck to your DD and all of you.

Well she’s heading back to Uni - meeting with Snr course lead on Wednesday and has written things down - lack of support regards resitting year / no contact with other students who are resitting (her words would have been moral support) Also that she dislikes the University, she is going to mention when she was or family were dealing with bereavement the tutor who she spoke to said take medication as a comfort blanket and also distance self from family ! I didn’t know this and am furious

@poetryandwine Thankyou for your very constructive reply, much appreciated.

As a family we’ve told her her health is most important and no one looks at her as failure in any shape or form .

Also for her meeting I’ve suggested she elaborates and doesn’t say ‘hate the university’ as it is very constructive in anyway - so needs to be specific. She certainly needs to take this onboard and own it all.

In reality it is the fact in her eyes the resitting of the year has knocked her confidence and made her feel a failure and feels there has been a lack of support by Uni? We’ve discussed this together and to look at it as a revision yr having had a bad yr with Covid . It’s in her court as to what she does. We’re here in background for additional
Support should she need it . Thankyou

I hope all works out for her.

I would be very surprised if the university wouldn't agree to her taking a year out and rejoining next year, if no other solution can be found. That would at least stop the clock for funding, keep her options open for now and give her time to make up her mind whether medicine is for her, explore other careers/courses and alternative universities (although it may be difficult to transfer as a medic).

I seem to remember she has been unhappy with the university since day one? Although it may be difficult to transfer, it isn't impossible. She would only be term behind where she is now if she restarted and one term short of funding. Maybe she might find a different style of course suits her better or living nearer home?

If she does decide to continue, restarting next year at the same university with a new group of freshers might help her find her tribe through social media and freshers' week. She might find she fits in better with the graduate medics who are more likely to be over partying/drinking.

I hope everything works out and you are right to step back. However I notice that she seems to be placing all the blame for this situation with the university - she hates the university, hasn't been given enough support.... I hate to say but the university may think they have supported her by letting her resit the year - the rest is up to your DD to get on with it. Is she finding the course too difficult? Does she have exams coming up that she might not pass? I think that 2 years into her studies that these are the questions she needs to consider. It is very positive that she is going to see the senior course lead on Wednesday. However she might also need to be thinking about what she can do to make the situation better and enable herself to move forward.

Hi, OP -

Your DD is lucky to have a supportive family.

Recent bereavement can in itself be a Mitigating Circumstance and of course it can also trigger depression. Your report of the tutor comments is frankly mind boggling. I’m having a hard time imagining anyone I know stepping that far out of line, and my profession isn’t known for tactful practitioners.

So in the longer term interests of your DD, bearing in mind that she was certainly bereaved and possibly depressed, I will gently ask whether you think it possible that she may have misunderstood something? When I have investigated student reports of less awful inappropriate comments, perhaps 30-40% of the time the culprit has confessed. For the rest, my own opinions have been split about 50-50: sometimes though by no means always, students do misunderstand. Please know I make no judgment on what happened. I am trying to convey that unless the person who said this has a history, on Wed the tutor won’t know what to think if your DD focuses on this conversation. I do think that mentioning in passing that she sought but did not receive useful advice around the bereavement is good. The tutor can draw the details out if they wish.

If she can focus on the lack of support that is much better. I suspect there are confidentiality arguments that can be cited for declining to disclose the repeaters to each other, but I find that pretty feeble: Student Support could have contacted them individually about laying on extra support, forming a study group, etc.

What was the general quality of instructional provision during COVID? It will have affected everyone but if your DD has been stressed COVID arrangements may have worsened things. Everyone understands this. Does she have a good rapport with her personal tutor? If not, that should be mentioned. Most Schools have a few highly proactive PT’s who are willing to check in with their vulnerable tutees periodically, facilitate counselling if needed, etc. And most, but not all, PT’s are willing to do this for one or two students. Would such a relationship help your DD? She would have to take the initiative.

@poetryandwine thank you again - I did question her comments to be fair ?
I have suggested she discusses request for suppport and fact that no contact etc made with other resisters ? I do understand the confidentiality side of things however a simple email /communication with all could
Have helped create some support group especially dealing with Covid as well?.

I do think myself her suspending her studies for a while to gather her thoughts without pressure. We’ll see. It’s a high pressure course doing medicine so a break would have her breathing space and I understand that her student finance would be placed on hold/frozen? - Thankyou for your comments and advice

🙂 These are some most important and precious advice every one should read 💜🙂 I hope things work out for your DD.

1. Take risks in your life. If you win, you can lead; if you lose, you can guide.

1. People are not what they say but what they do; so judge them not from their words but from their actions.

1. When someone hurts you, don't feel bad because it's a law of nature that the tree that bears the sweetest fruits gets maximum number of stones.

1. Take whatever you can from your life because when life starts taking from you, it takes even your last breath.

1. In this world, people will always throw stones on the path of your success. It depends on what you make from them - a wall or a bridge.

1. Challenges make life interesting; overcoming them make life meaningful.

1. There is no joy in victory without running the risk of defeat.

1. A path without obstacles leads nowhere.

1. Past is a nice place to visit but certainly not a good place to stay.

10. You can't have a better tomorrow if you are thinking about yesterday all the time.

I basically agree with you about supporting the repeating students, although I think contact might need to be made individually. I can see that setting up a study group would be trickier than usual with everything confidential until each student opts in, but I will stick with ‘feeble’.

I can’t comment on how financial support works but I agree that some breathing space is often exactly what a stressed student needs. Incidentally, if your DD decides to change pathways - and in no way am I suggesting that she should - I think that her FY for Medicine will be seen as a good credential.

Best wishes to you all

What's her best case scenario?
Do you or does she have the money to fund more years of study independently if she does drop out?
If not, she needs to think really carefully before dropping out.

Sorry I don't have info on the academic way forward but from what you've said it sounds like the first priority should be your DDs mental health. She clearly is very anxious about fitting in and how others will view her as well as feeling she can't cope. I think you need to convince her to leave and drum into her that she can be free of the pressure of med school and that there are other ways to move on. She might not be able to start thinking of how to move forward until the pressure is gone. My son had to leave at start of 2nd year as the stress of online learning. In the end I encouraged him to just stop and have some time out doing a mundane job. He did that and it helped him hugely. Now he's in another job and is doing really well, I think he will return to education in a few years. His MH was my big worry as I hadn't noticed the gradual decline and seeing him positive and happy again is great. Your DD has such a supportive DM I hope you find a way for her to move past this stress.

@SerendipitySunshine Thankyou - I certainly don’t have finances to fund her . My understanding is if she suspended studies student finance is frozen . Wait and see what Wednesday brings - Thankyou

@poetryandwine. Your input is greatly appreciated Thankyou . Good to hear her FY holds her in good stead should she take decision to do something else . It’s a case of wait and see. Her MH is important and don’t think the added stress she’s under is helping her with study or motivation- Thankyou

@VioletLemon Thankyou for your input - good to hear your son took a positive move and hope he continues to do well. Personally for our Dd I do think time away will help her gather thoughts , possibly work and reduce her stress by not worrying about exams/deadlines - we’ll see what feedback from her meeting - Thankyou

We have said that she will not be alone, however she has got into her head that she failed, Uni didn’t help and hasn’t helped?

It's really important that she learns that everybody fails spectacularly at something important at some point in their lives. Everyone. Marriages fail, pregnancies fail, businesses fail. People fail exams, driving tests, sports tournaments, job interviews etc etc etc. It's OK to fail. Failure is normal. How you respond to it and what you do to pick yourself up and get your life back on track is the only important issue concerning failure.
Failing doesn;t mean a person is a failure. It means they need to work on an s=asoect of their life or choose to take their life in a different direction.

It's telling that she feels the uni was useless at giving feedback and support. And that she doesn't like the uni. My heart goes out to her, doing a subject as stressful as Medicine during two years of lockdown. She has had the worst possible introduction to uni life. There should be loads of societies that aren't based around drinking but so many have closed down and not reopened.

Could she transfer to a uni nearer home? If not, can she research two or three things she'd like to do in her uni town (doesn't have to be uni-based but ideally would be) that fit in with her busy schedule and start doing them. Surely a yoga class or rowing or running team wouldn't be booze-based. Can she ask her tutors to connect up the 10 resit students so they can form a study group together?

All the things that should have evolved naturally over the first two years of uni life haven't due to Covid. I can hardly bear thinking about it, I am so angry and upset for this generation of students.

She needs to know it's not her fault she failed, it's a complex constellation of events that put undue pressure on her with lousy support. But she now needs to get in control of how she wants to handle the failure and make a choice she feels truly comfortable with and proud of.

Hi Monica, sorry to hear your daughter is going through it.

In 2018, my DD failed her 1st year too (graduate medicine) and felt pretty much as yours does.

It was very tough for her and at the time we weren't sure if she'd resit. We said we'd support whatever decision she made, but in the end she decided to stay, as being a doctor had been her dream. She resat her exams and passed, eventually qualifying last year.

I can't offer much practical advice but I think it always helps to know that others have made it through similar challenges.

[quote Monica53]@SerendipitySunshine Thankyou - I certainly don’t have finances to fund her . My understanding is if she suspended studies student finance is frozen . Wait and see what Wednesday brings - Thankyou[/quote]
I don't know for medicine, but for most subjects there is only one 'spare' year, so anyone who has to retake a year twice or changes courses after first year has to fund the fees for any extra years. It's worth speaking to student finance about how many years they consider she has had already before making a decision to leave the university.

The formula, iirc, for someone starting again, is 'length of (new) course, plus one year, minus any previous years of study'. A year already started, even if not completed, counts as a full year for funding purposes, unless the student has evidence that leaving the first course was due to compelling personal circumstances, such as deteriorating mental health. (Repayment due would only be for the partial year, though).

There are different funding rules for some courses (?most of the nursing and other health service related ones).

@MarchingFrogs

The formula, iirc, for someone starting again, is 'length of (new) course, plus one year, minus any previous years of study'. A year already started, even if not completed, counts as a full year for funding purposes, unless the student has evidence that leaving the first course was due to compelling personal circumstances, such as deteriorating mental health. (Repayment due would only be for the partial year, though).

There are different funding rules for some courses (?most of the nursing and other health service related ones).

Yes, that's my understanding too. So if she were to do a new three-year BSC, say, that would give four years of funding, minus three years already started. So they would expect the student/family to fund two years of tuition, but the loan would cover the final year.

But some courses are exempt from that.

Either way, I'd get her to check before making any big decisions.

Also, I'd imagine this year's accommodation cost is non-refundable?

I have no useful advice, but wanted to offer a handhold. It is so very hard when your DD is struggling and you can't just cuddle them and make things better for them. DD is struggling with anxiety just now so I understand how worrying it is for you

Hi
Update Dd is seriously now looking at alternatives, and preparing for her meeting with tutor. Getting some advise from family member who used to be a Dr. I think Dd has lost her love for the course which is sad as she’s done science study since 15. However her health is effected GP changes her medication for her and she’s literally spending spare time in her room in bed- no matter how old your child is when they’re 5/6hrs away it is upsetting and worrying. We have to to be there in background to provide support and help if we can. It has to be her decision however we have stated she will be given guidance and advice by Uni though she also needs to be proactive .

Great that she's preparing. Does she have a 'best case scenario' in mind? It's always helpful to go into that kind of meeting with an objective (along with any options that definitely wont work for her).