Keep options open with A levels in Maths, Physics, Biology and.. ?

[O2HaveALittleHouse]

Hi,
I have a year 11 DC who wants to keep her options open because she really doesn't know what she wants to do yet (August born so very young!). For university she is thinking of engineering, physics or possibly IT but has no real focus at this point.
She enjoys physics (predicted 9), maths (8), biology (9) and would like to do a 4th subject even though it's not that common at her state school. She doesn't really like chemistry having had poor teachers from the start and really likes history (predicted 9).
Her state school isn't great at careers advice and have said the above choices are great for either engineering or science but some googling suggests she should also do further maths for physics or computer science at the top tier universities like Imperial, Oxbridge and Durham. Likewise without chemistry, Biology is off the cards at most universities. I am worried her school are giving her poor advice. There have been no parent teacher meetings or A level choice seminars so I can't ask any questions.

So would she be better doing history because she loves it (as do I!) or taking chemistry to keep her options option in future?

The key thing about FM historically (and my DC are post uni so this may have changed a bit) is that the cohort taking FM are by definition the top rank mathematicians. Hence the cohort she is compared with will be much stronger mathematicians than the cohort at regular A level maths. This used to be why some good maths students were better off doing eg Physics or another subject from their strengths as their chances of getting three good grades were better than if they were in the FM pool.

I'm not sure that's quite right... the fact that not most students taking FM are able mathematicians is fairly reflected in the significantly higher numbers of them who are awarded top grades versus other subjects.

Sorry, there's a random 'not' in there.

I'm not sure that's quite right... the fact that not most students taking FM are able mathematicians is fairly reflected in the significantly higher numbers of them who are awarded top grades versus other subjects.

There might be a bit of both. It seems to be the case for modern foreign languages that the performance of native speakers pushes grade boundaries up, leading to very strong non-native speakers getting grades of B and lower, and it may be that the high level of mathematical ability of students taking further maths has a similar effect. While exam boards are supposed to keep standards comparable between subjects, this is very difficult when whole cohorts are performing at what should be A/A* standard.

Agree Errol.

Furthermore from observation, the very fact of taking FM seems to increase your chances of getting a good grade in Maths. If you are doing more maths by taking FM, the single maths papers start to become easier.

I also suspect that good mathematicians, who risk getting bored at GCSE level, actually enjoy being in a class with others of similar ability and find it stimulating. Depending on timetabling, a reason why a strong mathematician might opt for FM maths in order to take both exams with a strong cohort rather than with the potentially weaker single maths cohort.

You generally don't need Further Maths if your school doesn't offer it.

My DS did EE at UCL, and they did a two week summer course prior to joining for students who did not have FM.

My DD is studying CS and does not have FM.

@CraftyGin
Exactly. Even if if is offered, it’s not obligatory to take it. Very few options at high calibre universities are ruled out. So if you need all your time to concentrate on maths and two other sciences that’s absolutely fine.

the very fact of taking FM seems to increase your chances of getting a good grade in Maths. If you are doing more maths by taking FM, the single maths papers start to become easier

Yes. And even if you end up getting an A rather than A star in FM, you've still learned a huge amount of Maths and will probably easily get an A star in 'normal' Maths

The issue described with MFL certainly exists, but it's really not comparable with fm. For anyone who likes numbers....

http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm

@ErrolTheDragon, biology is completely bound up with chemistry these days.

Disregard the labels - advances in biology in the last 20 years have transformed the subject.

[quote mathanxiety]@ErrolTheDragon, biology is completely bound up with chemistry these days.

Disregard the labels - advances in biology in the last 20 years have transformed the subject.[/quote]
I don't disagree... my point was more that some disciplines with Bio in their names may be very much chemistry.

Maybe there's less chemical 'biology' in fields such as botany and zoology?

*The issue described with MFL certainly exists, but it's really not comparable with fm. For anyone who likes numbers....

www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm*

Very interesting. The general grade inflation (especially the teacher predicted ones) over the past few years is huge!!!

Former Russell Group lecturer and STEM admissions tutor posting for the first time as I think this is a really important topic.

OP, the only fourth A Level that can help with your daughter's uni admissions is Further Maths, and only if she has enthusiasm and aptitude for it. If the fourth A Level impacts even one of the grades on the main three exams, it has detracted from rather than helped the student's position (at least at the RG universities). We would rather see A A A than AA*AA or AAB than ABBB. Every uni in the land makes the large majority, if not all, of its offers on three A levels.

I see no reason to burden your daughter with the pressure of a fourth A Level unless possibly FM, for reasons given by PPs. Very few of her fellow students - her competitors - will be similarly handicapped.

There is usually something a bit idealistic in the posts about four A Levels that I find appealing, and I've not responded previously because I've worried about sounding harsh. But grades are the bottom line and very few students can pull it off. I have been the personal tutor for several students who may well have made their Oxbridge offers had they confined themselves to three A Levels. I believe they could have succeeded there, and they were amongst our top students.

@poetryandwine
Thank goodness for sanity! Thank you. You really can succeed with 3!

@FatOaf

I'm not sure that's quite right... the fact that not most students taking FM are able mathematicians is fairly reflected in the significantly higher numbers of them who are awarded top grades versus other subjects.

There might be a bit of both. It seems to be the case for modern foreign languages that the performance of native speakers pushes grade boundaries up, leading to very strong non-native speakers getting grades of B and lower, and it may be that the high level of mathematical ability of students taking further maths has a similar effect. While exam boards are supposed to keep standards comparable between subjects, this is very difficult when whole cohorts are performing at what should be A/A* standard.

Mine are post uni so its possible this has changed but certainly when they were at school, also when I was at school there were certain subjects which attracted a cohort heavily skewed toward high performers.

Languages where the cohort is mostly native speakers, FM, photography and music tech were four I recall being strongly flagged as "don't do unless you really are outstanding" when mine were choosing A level subjects (and AS subjects as they were then).

I'd always been aware of the languages and FM scenario but some of the other subjects took me by surprise (stupidly tbh, but I'd not grasped their skew).

@O2HaveALittleHouse

Or even further maths which I think she could do, but is told by the school is "hardcore".

Can I just pick up on that choice of description? It's probably valid, yes, but ...

Girls hear "it's hardcore" and may think, maybe it's not for me. Boys hear "it's hardcore" and may think, bring it on.

I agree with those who've said, if she gets 8 in GCSE then probably not a great idea to do FM, but given her interest in physics and engineering I'd definitely encourage her to discuss in greater detail with her teachers what kind of FM candidate she might really be. Is her current predicted 8 thought fairly accurate or is it early days yet on that, for example?

Is she doing / has she the opportunity to do Add maths now? From what I've seen that course really helps as a bridge to A level maths and supports faster progression for those doing FM as well.

[doi enjoyed hardcore maths and physics at university ...]

My point was more that some disciplines with Bio in their names may be very much chemistry.

I know it's not directly relevant to OP's DD, but just wanted to echo what Errol said above. My DD's first degree was biomedical science and universities were far more interested in her chemistry than her biology (though she did both at A level). Chemistry was also more use to her during that degree.

@O2HaveALittleHouse

Or even further maths which I think she could do, but is told by the school is "hardcore".

Was she told this by her maths teacher or by some well-meaning other teacher? Her maths teacher should know whether it is a sensible option for her.

Further Maths definitely useful for engineering/physics - not usually demanded as not all schools offer it, but on some courses those who don't have it will find things harder.
For sciences, chemistry does seem to keep options open better than the other sciences. However it sounds like she's more likely to go in the engineering/physics direction, in which case adding Further Maths to Maths/Physics/Biology ought to work.

To clarify, my remarks above are based on my experience with thousands of applications during a fairly recent 5 year term as Admissions Tutor in a large RG STEM School. The experience convinced me that for the large majority of students a conservative approach is the best way to achieve their top choice or an insurance they are enthusiastic about. Sadly, @ViceLikeBlip describes a lack of confidence and frazzlement students describe during interview all too frequently as a reason they dropped the fourth A Level.

I made a case above as to why FM is the only rational choice for a fourth A Level, charming as other options may be. With a current PG of 8, I would hesitate to recommend from afar that your DD take this up. She needs some good advice from a trustworthy source. I agree with @Pythhonesque that girls and boys may react differently to the description of FM as 'hardcore', and it is not a helpful word to use. The problem is that we can't know if it was meant to discourage your daughter in an impersonal manner, by playing to stereotype - not that I approve of this approach. Very frustrating!

@TizerorFizz has some excellent replies explaining why FM is not needed for many great engineering options. Someone I haven't got time to scroll through and credit mentioned Environmental Engineering as a particular possibility for someone with interests in Biology, and I thought that such a good suggestion as to be worth echoing. Finally, @TizerorFizz talked about how easy it is at her place to switch between BEng and MEng. I want to emphasise that this is generally true.

Moreover, we all want our students to succeed and be happy. I think your DD will find that as long as she is doing well and can show she has the background her uni will try to accommodate any change of course she might wish to make early on.

Further Maths (but maths may not be strong enough with an 8) or Economics or History (develops writing skills and you say your daughter enjoys it!). Psychology A level would also fit at that overlaps with both Biology and Maths.

Chemistry A level is hard and I wouldn't suggest doing it at a whim. After results day my son switched from History to Chemistry (went on to doing Mech Eng) and my daughter switched from Chemistry to History (studying Psychology). If she's not 100% sure she should check what option combinations fit where she is applying for 6th form and whether there is flexibility to switch on results day!

@poetryandwine

Former Russell Group lecturer and STEM admissions tutor posting for the first time as I think this is a really important topic.

OP, the only fourth A Level that can help with your daughter's uni admissions is Further Maths, and only if she has enthusiasm and aptitude for it. If the fourth A Level impacts even one of the grades on the main three exams, it has detracted from rather than helped the student's position (at least at the RG universities). We would rather see A A A than AA*AA or AAB than ABBB. Every uni in the land makes the large majority, if not all, of its offers on three A levels.

I see no reason to burden your daughter with the pressure of a fourth A Level unless possibly FM, for reasons given by PPs. Very few of her fellow students - her competitors - will be similarly handicapped.

There is usually something a bit idealistic in the posts about four A Levels that I find appealing, and I've not responded previously because I've worried about sounding harsh. But grades are the bottom line and very few students can pull it off. I have been the personal tutor for several students who may well have made their Oxbridge offers had they confined themselves to three A Levels. I believe they could have succeeded there, and they were amongst our top students.

This focusses on "getting the best A-level outcomes", which is fair enough, but it would also be interesting to know how students with/without Further Maths get on with their university courses. I've heard anecdotal evidence from people who've said that on their course, those with Further Maths had a big headstart in the first year courses. In terms of preparing for university, arguably AAAB (M/Ph/FM/Biol) might be rather more useful than AAA* and no knowledge of Further Maths - if the course is one where they move very quickly through any FM material.

That bit that's gone into bold should be three A*.

This focusses on "getting the best A-level outcomes", which is fair enough, but it would also be interesting to know how students with/without Further Maths get on with their university courses. I've heard anecdotal evidence from people who've said that on their course, those with Further Maths had a big headstart

Yes. And Universities may well view applicants with FM more favourably, even if the overall grades are a little lower!

This is a good point, @lanthanum. (Sorry, if I remove the asterisk I unbold your username.) In my former School, FM is not a requirement but it is recommended, and we analysed it. Overall, those who had grade A or better at FM did do slightly better upon degree classification than those without FM. But those who had lower grades at FM did slightly worse. Almost everyone who took FM did it as one of 3 A Levels.

A related point is that a good knowledge of FM may give confidence, particularly in Year 1. At the risk of overgeneralising, young women in STEM tend to have less confidence than young men. But first you have to get in.

To @blubells and others who are making attractive cases for four A Levels -

I'm trying to give the OP an inside view from one very good but not super elite RG STEM School. Personally I find the idea of breadth very appealing. I was educated in such a tradition, beginning university studying the humanities and ending up with a STEM Ph.D.

I agree that when the fourth A Level works it is fab, and I too used it as a talking point at interview - it's very interesting when e.g. a maths geek is also doing French! But in no way does it compensate for lower grades. I never heard of a School that would make lower offers because of a fourth A level. You need to be ready for Year 1.

Possibly if you don't make your offer and if your top choice is making further offers after A Level grades are released, you will be most likely to get an offer if you took 4 A Levels and were a near miss. For me, that isn't much of a reason to take this path.