Keep options open with A levels in Maths, Physics, Biology and.. ?

[O2HaveALittleHouse]

Hi,
I have a year 11 DC who wants to keep her options open because she really doesn't know what she wants to do yet (August born so very young!). For university she is thinking of engineering, physics or possibly IT but has no real focus at this point.
She enjoys physics (predicted 9), maths (8), biology (9) and would like to do a 4th subject even though it's not that common at her state school. She doesn't really like chemistry having had poor teachers from the start and really likes history (predicted 9).
Her state school isn't great at careers advice and have said the above choices are great for either engineering or science but some googling suggests she should also do further maths for physics or computer science at the top tier universities like Imperial, Oxbridge and Durham. Likewise without chemistry, Biology is off the cards at most universities. I am worried her school are giving her poor advice. There have been no parent teacher meetings or A level choice seminars so I can't ask any questions.

So would she be better doing history because she loves it (as do I!) or taking chemistry to keep her options option in future?

I did maths, further maths, physics and IT for my a-levels (with an additional AS level).

I would not recommend it, 4 a-levels were hard going. I'm sure the curriculum will have changed in the last 15 years (I am so old!) but I doubt it will get significantly easier.

There were only 4 people in my further maths class. I did physics at uni and most people had further maths so I would recommend it if she does want to go that route.

It's a shame about the CS. DDs school had a good CS teacher for a couple of years; he left to go to another school because not enough wanted to do it for A level. I think that's part of the problem, because it's not a required subject.

Depending on what her A level load turns out to be, there are lots of ways of getting some coding experience which may make life a bit easier on any uni course. It's possible to do 'artefact' EPQs where they make something rather than an extended piece of writing. And/or develop some practical engineering related skills.

She shouldn’t be doing four A Levels unless one is FM. It’s a foolish move. Not a single university requires it.

She also needs to think hard about doing maths/FM with a predicted 8 (which could obviously translate to a 7 in the end). It’s tough going (Fm in particular). A solid 9 and a real love of maths is needed.

History makes no sense. It’s extremely content heavy and doesn’t go with any of her other potential subjects.

Some students who have sufficient ability and motivation can manage four. It may be inadvisable if they're aiming for courses which require top grades in three subjects (my DD dropped her fourth subject after AS, it's a shame that's usually not an option now). But there's more to education than getting grades for uni. Learning is an end in itself - it's a shame that sixth form is so grade focussed.

She shouldn’t be doing four A Levels unless one is FM. It’s a foolish move. Not a single university requires it.

If a student enjoys 4 subjects and has the ability then they can absolutely take 4 A levels.

My dc took 4 separate A levels (a language, Music, a Science and Maths) and managed very well. The Universities seemed to like their profile and all offers were based on any 3 A level grades.

So no, it's not necessarily 'foolish' to take four A levels.

History makes no sense. It’s extremely content heavy and doesn’t go with any of her other potential subjects.

What a narrow minded view of learning and enjoying a subject?!

One of DDs friends got a place at Cambridge maths with maths, fm, physics and ... French. During the first year she decided being a mathmo wasn't for her, and was able to switch to MML. For her it turned out very much the right thing to have done four including a non STEM subject.

And even if a University doesn't require more than 3 A levels, many successful applicants do offer 4, especially at Oxbridge.

but don't attempt it at a top tier Russell group uni without chemistry

www.whatdotheyknow.com/

If you have a bit of time on your hands, you could submit FOI requests to the 'top tier Russell group' universities wrt degree classification / drop out rates, Biology, with and without A level Chemistry?

What a narrow minded view of learning and enjoying a subject?!

I did history and loved it. Ds is also doing history and likely to do it at university. I’m not anti history, I’m saying it doesn’t make much sense when considering what she is likely to do and if she’s thinking of four A Levels, she’s going to be very busy anyway so adding a content heavy subject isn’t advisable if she’s aiming for a clean sweep of top grades.

Tbh those who are commenting based on the system a few years ago and referencing things like AS levels which are not really taken anymore are not providing the best advice. Yes of course some still take four A Levels and some might even still do an AS level but the system is constantly evolving and its incredibly competitive after a couple of years of TAGs and so top grades are crucial. As a result the best advice is now likely to be don’t spread yourself too thinly and don’t take on too much in terms of time/content pressures.

Just throwing in my tuppence to vote for history.

Study at higher levels is tough enough and the enjoyment factor takes the edge off and really helps to carry you through when things get intense. I'm also a believer that if taking a 4th subject when it's not necessary, she shouldn't overload herself, so opting for a subject that comes easily to here is best.

Also - don't underestimate the humanities. History is a traditional academic subject and valued by universities and employers for its rigour. Given her focus on STEM choices, it'll broaden her prospects for future opportunities more than another STEM subject right now.

Back in my DCs' day things were organised in blocks, to help with timetabling. Therefore there wasn't a free choice, you had to do what fitted in with the school's organisation. Does this apply in your case because that might force an answer on you!

DS did Psychology. He's quite good at Maths (despite not liking it) so the statistical side of Pysch was easy for him. There is also logic and essay-writing so it expands the transferrable skills. The subject used to be sniffed at a bit because it was considered easy but, hey, it got him his best grade (which fulfilled University entry-requirements) so I wasn't complaining.

Does your friend have much knowledge of A level and degree content? I can only speak from my dd's experience, but really there wasn't much A level Chem content in her Bio (good RG) degree (and she looked at degree content at other unis) - what there was wasn't difficult to catch up on. She missed having Maths A level far more. (Yes, a biologist with no Chemistry or Maths A levels 😱😄)

Your summary sounds good.

There are some odd comments on this thread. I will throw in some more, hopefully less odd:

1. Do look at biomedical engineering. DD graduated in it last year, and loved it. There were various strands and she was more interested in the mechanical/devices, but plenty of stuff around scanning and bio-chemical options.

1. Taking four, especially STEM, depends on aptitude but also on personality. Aptitude is important in that those without say aptitude in maths, physics or chemistry have to work very hard indeed, but those who pick things up quickly and are interested, will have less of a work load. Four would be difficult if you were a perfectionist, but for DC who have mastered the "good enough" it can be fine and a good preparation for University.

1. Four gives you more options. My DC actually took five, including electronics, which worked well. Electronics gave them experience of actually building things and some coding and was a good contrast to the other subjects. Other STEM applicants use MFL or a humanities subject to give breath to their skill set and some contrast. The wider range enabled DD to study both medicine and engineering, which should stand her in good stead when pursuing her chosen career path, whilst history has given DS useful broader skills. It also meant that DD did not panic when she had a nasty 24 hour sickness bug on the day of a physics exam.

1. DS wondered whether he would struggle with FM but actually found maths at A level more interesting than at GCSE and therefore less of a struggle than he had expected. If she takes four she can take a punt on something and drop it if need be.

1. I always find it odd when people say there is not much maths in engineering. DD's had plenty and some found it tough, though DD enjoyed being stretched.

6.Both mine have had to pick up coding at University. It would have been useful to have done more at school.

I second the idea of looking at what courses are available. Imperial is another good starting point as they offer such a huge range, even if you are not interested in studying there.

no humanities at all?

@O2HaveALittleHouse
I think a lot of older eminent people focus on what worked for them. They won’t necessarily know what the content of all university biology courses looks like. The world changes! There are always variations in content. Chemistry heavy ones might possibly be avoided?! I would look at Biology courses at a range of RG universities. Plus a couple of others. It will give you a flavour of what is needed to flourish on the course snd what options there might be.

You will find lots of people get fixated on FM for nearly every stem course. It isn’t needed for everything by any means. I think looking further than school subjects is a good idea too. If she’s interested in biology, why wouldn’t she look at Environmental science, marine biology or bio-engineering? There are so many options now that probably were not around when your friend went to university.

I always find it odd when people say there is not much maths in engineering. DD's had plenty and some found it tough, though DD enjoyed being stretched.

I'm not sure anyone really says that? It's more that there's a big range of 'engineering'. Some of it needs mind-bogglingly hard maths, and so some courses will require (or 'highly desire') FM so that the students can hit the ground running and go on from there. But there are other, maybe more practical/vocational degrees producing highly employable engineers which are pitched differently. Some courses will require that their students can really do the hard maths; others may require they have sufficient understanding that they can apply mathematical techniques. The same is true in some other STEM disciplines.

@Needmoresleep
Who said there wasn’t much maths in engineering? It’s absolutely clear that some courses at some universities require FM. The vast, vast majority do not. In fact some of the most talented engineers do not have FM. It is not necessary but it’s useful. It’s clear anyone with a high grade in maths will be fine at most universities for engineering and have a great career after. Engineering is not all about maths. It might be for some cogs in a big wheel bearer img away, but others really are not doing that type of job. The engineering world is very broad and exists largely outside Imperial educated DC. In fact huge dollops of common sense and problem solving go a long way when added to A levels!

Biology itself is presumably not necessarily as chemical as some of the other fields with Bio in their name. Biochemistry, obviously; on further thought, some aspects of biophysics may possibly be more chemistry than either biology of physics. I could probably call myself a structural biologist nowadays despite not having studied biology since my 16+ exam.

Thanks Errol.

DD did not have FM and said the maths on her course was challenging, though fun. But then I guess some of the imaging stuff can be maths heavy. It is probably fair to say that FM keeps more doors open.

And sorry Tizer. I forgot you were an engineer, and a recruiter of graduate engineers. I would argue though that many DC with a strong maths aptitude actually enjoy FM far more than they did GCSE maths, and go on to enjoy maths at University maths. It can be brutally hard for those who are not as gifted, but that does not mean it is hard per se. And those same DC will, quite possibility, enjoy the more mathematical engineering courses that FM opens doors to. Some general advice that DS was given was that if you were taking a course which was likely to use maths it was far easier to learn that maths, or as much as you could, at school in a classroom setting, and with teacher support. (Other advice was not to take maths simply because it was a "good thing", as without the aptitude it is a real slog.)

All that's true, needsmoresleep.

The other thing, you say she’s aug born.

If she chooses what she genuinely wants to do, is interested in and will get the best results in, she can always take an extra year and sit chemistry or any other a level that may be needed if she changes her career path.

I’ve been there, better to take the time and choose a’levels/degree with care than move through the pathway because that’s what you do, and end up with a degree that doesn’t fit your career aspirations. Especially is she’s unsure what those are.

And also- Scottish uni’s first year if a four year degree bridges the gap between highers and a’levels.

If she does need chemistry, she can take that in the first year and then move on to whatever science course she wants for the remaining 3 years. English uni’s i think you can do it as well- a friend had arts a’levels and got onto a science degree by doing a year of a HND? Course at her chosen uni and then transferring in second year.

Getting the “right” a levels isn’t the be all and end all, there are alternative pathways if she changes her mind career wise and he a’levels don’t fit.

I agree with your friend that if she wants to do a biological science at a good university the lack of chemistry will make things more difficult.

I also agree with the general consensus that 3 A* is better than 4 lessor grades in terms of university chances.

Its entirely possible to build a career in IT without the related degree, its often easier with at least a scientific degree but there are companies which specialise in "bootcamping" graduates from other disciplines and placing them in IT jobs.

The key thing about FM historically (and my DC are post uni so this may have changed a bit) is that the cohort taking FM are by definition the top rank mathematicians. Hence the cohort she is compared with will be much stronger mathematicians than the cohort at regular A level maths. This used to be why some good maths students were better off doing eg Physics or another subject from their strengths as their chances of getting three good grades were better than if they were in the FM pool.

I would argue though that many DC with a strong maths aptitude actually enjoy FM far more than they did GCSE maths, and go on to enjoy maths at University

Yes. My ds is currently taking Maths/FM, Physics and German.

The combined Maths and physics is very complimentary and he seems to really enjoy it. Taking a fourth A level (language) is therefore more like a 3rd A level.