Is it worth going to university to study Economics?

[NotCure172]

Not sure if this is the right but here I go!
A backstory of my life…
So I’ve been in a dead end job in retail since I have been 16 after getting very poor GCSE results, I didn’t get anything above a D. I dropped out of college as I was horrendously bullied by students and the teachers didn’t seem to care but I wasn’t really academically driven either. So I just drifted along working in a supermarket.

Eventually I got sick of working unsociable hours, long days, dealing with awful customers, and poor pay so I decided to go back into education. I’m now 24 and I did an Access Course and I got a distinction. I also have redone my GCSE Maths & English and got a Grade 6. My parents and partner were so happy for me! I couldn’t believe I did so well. I currently do unpaid work as a trainee treasurer remotely while working at a supermarket.

I have been in contact with a few universities and they have informed me I meet the entry requirements to study a BSc in Economics.

So my question is, is it worth it me going to university? Has anyone here studied Economics? I would love to be an Economist/Policy Advisor/just anything in finance. I have read so many forums about people studying Economics and it didn’t financially help them. I have looked at sandwich courses which have a year’s placement - is this a good option?

Thank you!

First of all, bloody well done to you OP! What a fantastic achievement, you must be so proud of yourself.

I haven’t studied economics but my partner studied a business degree (at a russell group uni) and he enjoyed the blend of maths and more management-related courses. He got into a graduate scheme and has worked in a related field for the past decade.

If you’re interested in working in finance or in business more generally, many companies offer traineeships where they’ll pay you to do your degree and give you time off to study while also earning. My partner’s company offers them; they offer a good starting salary and they’re really well-respected in the industry (perhaps more so than ‘straight’ degrees in some ways because you’ve got the added benefit of real-world work experience) so please PM me if you’d like to know more!

[quote TizerorFizz]@Squashpocket
Except they are highly competitive! Again is an access course enough to compete with high grade A levels in appropriate subjects? Only an application will find out![/quote]
Thanks to widening participation it’s not so straightforward anymore. There are even courses which give students an extra year to bring them up to the level needed for first year undergrad. Not sure if there are any for mature students though

Nothing ventured nothing gained

@thing47 it doesn’t really in my current industry either 😎

A degree apprenticeship etc is always the best route to job + degree in any case

Also Barclays accept apprentices as long as they’re over 16

www.barclays.co.uk/journal/apprenticeships/

Know a couple of career changes who got into their tech degree apprenticeships

thenextreality.barclays/technology-apprentices

Just lubricating the conversation, @TractorAndHeadphones. I did not make sweeping statements. In my own School we learnt the hard way not to accept the relevant Access course, as it did not give adequate preparation. For more relevant evidence, Cambridge, Warwick and LSE Econ all require grade A at A-Level Maths. So does Econ and Management at Oxford. (Contextual offers included at all places.) The OP has a 6 at GCSE Maths and probably hasn't done a STEM Access course. So I feel pretty confident extrapolating that her qualifications, whilst strong and something to be proud of, do not equate to an A at A-Level Maths. Nowhere did I imply that all good universities fail to accept Access qualification or that she can't compete in a good, less maths-orientated programme. If OP's distinction is in a STEM Access course, it's a different story and above all, as many PPs have said, the key is to query individual Schools as she has done at Aston and Loughborough.

The NSS had an excellent 69% national reply rate in 2021. This information is readily available on the internet. Sad for some, outside of the super elites it is cheeseparing days and universities simply cannot afford the level of bribery that would affect outcomes.

My disciplinary background provides me with a rigorous understanding of how data can be manipulated, thanks.

The Guardian League Table 2022 I linked to above definitely shows the percentage in graduate level jobs or further study, professional study,
etc, 15 months after graduation. It is the second column from the right.

@poetryandwine
To be fair though, in many circles the Guardian table is a bit of a joke. If puts world leading universities below places like Bradford. There is clear evidence of a pecking order for economics grads and it’s very much driven by world leading employers. They do notice where you went to university and deploy fierce tests for jobs! What happens is that the best students at the best universities still get the jobs. That doesn’t mean other grads don’t get jobs but they don’t get the wow salaries the top grads get.

@poetryandwine

The Guardian League Table 2022 I linked to above definitely shows the percentage in graduate level jobs or further study, professional study, etc, 15 months after graduation. It is the second column from the right.

That's not what you said earlier, you said what 'senior lecturers' said. Far enough the guardian shows this but again the data is missing for about 20 universities (30% ). We won't agree on the NSS as you have your experience and I have mine but this survey doesn't use that anyway it uses the Graduate Outcomes survey where students are contacted by a third party 15 months after graduation.

Anyway as you have said the only way to find out is actually speaking to said universities.

Which was the point of my initial post ... league tables aren't of much use.

@TractorAndHeadphones, I was recapping the Economics lecturers above on this very thread. Everyone wants to help the OP so when they discuss employment for their own graduates I trust them. Exactly what they mean I neither know nor have reason to enquire. It is the OP's job to do that at the places where she wants to apply, if she cares to do so.

You make a good point about the unis missing from the NSS. If I were a prospective student I might wonder about that, although there may be valid reasons for skipping it (that I can't think of at the moment).

I don't think league tables are perfect. The Guardian table in particular takes no account of research power. I wonder if @TizerorFizz was getting at this? For strong students, being in a research environment can be a plus even if the benefits are mostly indirect.

@poetryandwine
Yes I was getting at research and the jobs market in respect of well paid jobs is very skewed to RG universities in this subject.

It is also important to look at the latest info from the Sutton Trust. The universities that provide the best social mobility outcomes are nearly all around London. Queen Mary is the best. This is partly because the best paid jobs are in London and the London based students can apply for them and live at home. There is now so much information about what is “best” it’s up to students to try and evaluate research and see if it applies to them.

[quote TizerorFizz]@poetryandwine
Yes I was getting at research and the jobs market in respect of well paid jobs is very skewed to RG universities in this subject.

It is also important to look at the latest info from the Sutton Trust. The universities that provide the best social mobility outcomes are nearly all around London. Queen Mary is the best. This is partly because the best paid jobs are in London and the London based students can apply for them and live at home. There is now so much information about what is “best” it’s up to students to try and evaluate research and see if it applies to them.[/quote]
I’d be interested in seeing the specific study. Is it implying that people don’t take London jobs because they can’t afford the rent while local students can live at home?
A lot of grads end up in London anyway even if the salary is low as there’s plenty of opportunity to gain more. You won’t be able to afford your own central city flat like in Manchester say but it’s possible to live.
😂 I went the opposite way but my firm had London locations I could pop by … so I wasn’t too bothered

here is the study @TractorandHeadphones
ifs.org.uk/publications/15845
you can download subject specific tables as well and compare economics programmes this way

@TractorAndHeadphones
The study looks at which universities are best at helping social mobility. I might be wrong but, as the majority of universities that rank the highest for this are in London, other students that arrive in London, although, of course, are important for social mobility, their universities might not be in the top 20 in this study due to numbers. I don’t know if anyone has studied whether London is still such a draw for grads? It would be interesting to know. Or are local students getting more of the best grad jobs because they can live more cheaply with parents? I think it’s highly possible that many London students study, and then get jobs in London. I think you might see similar trends in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and Newcastle for example where students stay local.

Many of the London universities do significant outreach so you might expect them to feature in such research. Plus they have, perhaps, a larger community that wants to do well and grabs the opportunities because they see higher earning people all around them. Which the study certainly points out.

Thank you for the sources, @drwitch and @TizerorFizz. In addition to the factors discussed above, the IFS mentions that a high proportion of London pupils are on Free School Meals and a high proportion of these are ethnic minority and academically successful. There may be an implication that they are more likely to attend university in London. I've seen now outdated studies to that effect. I will catch up with these for my own interest when I have time.

OP,

The advice here does suggest that for the most highly ambitious students a very few Schools of Economics requiring grade A at A-Levels Maths (or equivalent) offer big advantages. I'm not suggesting that one should or should not be in that 'most highly ambitious' group and I can tell you that (a) by graduation and again (b) 10 years on it will be a lot smaller. But if you are, I am writing with an idea given the Maths issue.
(One advantage of the apprenticeship route is that you won't need any of this.)

When your particular uni matters to your employer, it is about where you got your final degree. Let's suppose you go to Loughborough - it has much to recommend it but isn't on the select list from PPs above. If you care about the employers who want the select unis, my suggestion is to investigate the possibility of an MSc after e.g. Loughborough. This would be a one year course.

The unis listed emphasise that the MSc is very competitive. But your lecturers will likely have trained at this calibre of place. They will have a sense of what you need and can advise you. If you are on track for a solid First Class degree, do enough independent thinking to write a very good personal statement and application, and get to know three of your Year 2/early Year 3 lecturers so they can write you strong letters of recommendation, I think you will have a good chance. Why wouldn't you? Also it would be helpful to take advantage of any good internships or other training opportunities you can find.

Note: UCL says the requirement is a 2.2 degree and if memory serves the others (Cambridge, Warwick, LSE; I did not check Nottingham just because I was rushed) say 2.1. But all the websites emphasise how competitive they are and some emphasise that they do not necessarily make offers at the minimum standard. I think aiming for a 1st class degree if you want to go this route is best, though I might apply with a 2.1 if I had good relationships with some academics, rather than just being a warm body in their lectures, etc and a good application.

Again, well done to you and very best wishes

OP
One thing to check is whether there a dissertation option in the final year. you can use this to craft a Masters application or talk about economic skills in any job application. It is also a good signal of the expectations of the staff towards their higher achieving students.

@poetryandwine
I do think that’s good advice. However I have one comment. Lots of people have first class degrees from lesser universities. They then do a masters elsewhere. That still may not be enough to land anything in the “highly ambitious” jobs market. The competition is fierce and one way employers sift is by tests. These may gave little to do with your MSc. I tend to think they look for all round intelligence, reasoning and critical thinking. The OP might have this in spades but employers are highly selective, even for internships. However it’s certainly very good to get to Loughborough from where the OP started from. Being ambitious beyond that and getting a first is a bit of an unknown quantity right now with an average gcse grade in maths. However nothing ventured. Nothing gained.

At the risk of going anecdotal, what @poetryandwine and @drwitch are talking about is kind of what DD1 did, though she isn't an economist.

She got a good first degree from a mid-rank university then went to a world-leading one for her Masters. She got a distinction in her MSc and also conducted original (publishable) research. That has opened up potential next steps in a way her first degree would not have as people are much more interested in her post-grad than her under-grad.

Yes @thing47 but some people might not be interested at all if grad cannot pass the other selection tests. Quite a few employers don’t recruit on MA or MSc specialisms. Some do of course. Totally depends on area of employment. Anecdotally I know people with masters who cannot get jobs. There’s too many of them with masters for the jobs available. Having no work experience can count against people too. It’s a much bigger picture than degree and masters.

I know it is a tall order, @TizerorFizz. I don't think the OP knows yet how far she is capable of developing. If it turns out maths really is not a strength and that is a problem, she will have to deal with it like so many others. But that's part of discovering yourself, right?

OP, please do consider the cautions if you think about this plan going forward. Different opinions, particularly from lecturers who know you, are really important.

@poetryandwine
Yes - I do agree she should give it a go.

Sorry to everyone who replied and didn’t get back to. You’ve all offered fantastic advice! I thought long and hard about it and decided against becoming an Economist. Jobs were too London-centric and I live in Cheltenham! My partner mentioned becoming an accountant so I researched that and found an apprenticeship!

They are funding my studies and working in the workplace. I will be a tax adviser once I qualify which really excites me. It is such a difference to working in a supermarket and I sometimes cry thinking how far I’ve come from my unmotivated 17 year old self. I would like to thank every one of you who congratulated me on my success. It means so much

DSS has an economics degree and Masters in Economics and is just about to start a graduate job on £60,000 per year plus bonuses. He's gone into finance though. His degrees are also from very well-respected universities which probably helps with earning power. He will also need to put in the hours that financial institutions expect which is easier at 23 than later in life.

Read your update - great move for you. Congratulations!

I studied it as let of my first degree - really enjoyed it. 3 people I know have economics degrees - one is a PR manager, one a journalist and the other a PE teacher.

OP - read your update and that sounds like a fabulous position to be in!

All the Best of Wishes for your new journey.

You certainly have lifted yourself up and actively changed your circumstances. Well Done:)