Is it worth going to university to study Economics?

[NotCure172]

Not sure if this is the right but here I go!
A backstory of my life…
So I’ve been in a dead end job in retail since I have been 16 after getting very poor GCSE results, I didn’t get anything above a D. I dropped out of college as I was horrendously bullied by students and the teachers didn’t seem to care but I wasn’t really academically driven either. So I just drifted along working in a supermarket.

Eventually I got sick of working unsociable hours, long days, dealing with awful customers, and poor pay so I decided to go back into education. I’m now 24 and I did an Access Course and I got a distinction. I also have redone my GCSE Maths & English and got a Grade 6. My parents and partner were so happy for me! I couldn’t believe I did so well. I currently do unpaid work as a trainee treasurer remotely while working at a supermarket.

I have been in contact with a few universities and they have informed me I meet the entry requirements to study a BSc in Economics.

So my question is, is it worth it me going to university? Has anyone here studied Economics? I would love to be an Economist/Policy Advisor/just anything in finance. I have read so many forums about people studying Economics and it didn’t financially help them. I have looked at sandwich courses which have a year’s placement - is this a good option?

Thank you!

Hi OP . I really think you should take a deep breath and go for it ! My son is studying Environmental Economics at a RH Uni ..definitely relevant to this world and absolutely enjoying the course !

Management at Oxford or Bath are extremely good for employment. Depends where you are talking about and the strengths of the applicant. Earnings for economics grads vary very widely. LSE isn’t the same as Wolverhampton - so said the IFFS in 2017.

I think that this is all highly course/institution specific, and it doesn't really make sense to talk about Economics degrees in general. Some Universities have told you that you meet their requirements for an Economics degree, so one would hope they are used to taking students without a high level of mathematics. However, I would ask for more information on that i.e., are there many students in a similar position, how do they find it, and is there extra help available? Secondly, find out about the sort of jobs/further degrees that student from these particular courses/universities go on to (and the salary). Then make an informed decision.

Yes it is true that most Economics degrees require more mathematics and also that most give a high return in terms of job prospects. But that may not be true everywhere (and to be honest I would be slightly concerned about the chances of getting the latter, without the former). And specialist economists/advisors normally have graduate degrees these days.

But it is absolutely worth finding out more to see if the degrees you are qualified for will give you what you want. You have done really well. Good luck.

(Economics Uni Lecturer)

PS Please don't rely too much on the opinions of Mumsnet for something like this. Get some proper information from the Universities themselves. Loughborough is a very good University, by the way.

Just another point about the maths side. What students struggle with is not so much the maths but using it to understand the theory. For example students might be able to solve two equations, but panic when asked to find the point where demand =supply even though the maths is the same.

In some ways some students do better without a level maths (if they work at it) as they learn the maths with the economics and so are better able to put them together.

Hi OP,

@irregularegular and @drwitch have some good inside advice for you. The only thing is that when @drwitch says 'if they work at it' I can add from similar experience with students who make be lacking maths background that you have to take this really, really seriously. Every single time it comes up! Otherwise before you know it you are behind and possibly feeling hopeless. Vicious circle.

Would you have the self discipline to work at the maths every time you found something tricky? (You don't need to tell us.) Only you know, and I think the answer says a lot about whether you can successfully do Economics or would do better academically in a different programme.

As far as Econ goes, here is a link to the Guardian League Table for 2022 that you might find useful. It focuses on the student experience.
I thought Loughborough would rank highly but I had no idea that Aston would, also.

www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2021/sep/11/best-uk-universities-for-economics-league-table?CMP=gu_com

Best wishes.

I thought Loughborough would rank highly but I had no idea that Aston would, also.

It's a bit of an unusual ranking as it is largely driven by "student satisfaction" measures.

[quote TizerorFizz]@TractorAndHeadphones
Sadly mist degrees do not get the holders into generic grad schemes (jobs). There is now good evidence to show that only around 50% achieve this. Economics at a strong university might well be ok for employment but doing a business related degree could be better. To get into a grad apprenticeship scheme you have to get the job in the first place. Many applicants cannot do this. If the OP cannot move around the country it’s even more challenging.[/quote]
You’ve misunderstand my comment - the last paragraph clearly says that there are better routes to a job than a degree.

A BSc in economics doesn’t need to have difficult mathematics. A lot rely heavily on A-Level algebra, calculus and applied statistics which is a marketable skill as data analysts are in demand. Slightly more employable than your average politics/history/what have you student. But these things can be learnt via online courses not much need for a degree.

‘Business’ is too generic of a degree to comment on. There are so many possible combinations from the mediocre (which have generic ‘marketing’ and ‘management theory’ modules) to the exceptional (finance, behavioural psychology). It really depends on the specific degree.
But unless you have done employable modules in your degree or interesting stuff it’s not better than any other generic humanities degree. Maybe even less so as it has a rep for people who don’t know what to do but just want a degree.

Also to add OP if you really like Economics , it’s as good a choice as any. I did and went on to study Finance. I don’t work in the field but I still like reading the news, keeping up with policy etc.
A job in thé field isn’t impossible but you have to be very switched on and done lots of work whether it’s research, essays or internships before you graduate. You need relevant experience not just ‘any’ experience

@poetryandwine

Hi OP,

@irregularegular and @drwitch have some good inside advice for you. The only thing is that when @drwitch says 'if they work at it' I can add from similar experience with students who make be lacking maths background that you have to take this really, really seriously. Every single time it comes up! Otherwise before you know it you are behind and possibly feeling hopeless. Vicious circle.

Would you have the self discipline to work at the maths every time you found something tricky? (You don't need to tell us.) Only you know, and I think the answer says a lot about whether you can successfully do Economics or would do better academically in a different programme.

As far as Econ goes, here is a link to the Guardian League Table for 2022 that you might find useful. It focuses on the student experience.
I thought Loughborough would rank highly but I had no idea that Aston would, also.

www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2021/sep/11/best-uk-universities-for-economics-league-table?CMP=gu_com

Best wishes.

Those rankings mean nothing. For those who care about prestige Oxbridge and LSE are the gold standards. Followed by UCL, Warwick.

Nothing particularly impressive about say Stirling compared to Bristol.

I'm an economist in the civil service and think the apprenticeship programme is great and would highly recommend it. Over 4 years you get your undergraduate degree (no fees to pay), you get 4 years work experience, you get paid a good salary (depends on department) and at the end if you get a 2:1 or 1st in your degree you get a guaranteed job or you can go off and apply for other things.

Next round opens in Feb.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-government-economic-service-degree-level-apprenticeship

@irregularegular

I thought Loughborough would rank highly but I had no idea that Aston would, also.

It's a bit of an unusual ranking as it is largely driven by "student satisfaction" measures.

Likely to be biased as only those who are very bothered either way will complete the surveys…

Oops sorry I didn’t mean to post two things! It didn’t send

My eldest is doing PPE so not straight economics but with degree level economics at an RG uni. He has a 7 in GCSE maths but an A* In A level economics and didn’t do A level maths. He is managing the course very well!

@firsttimekat

I'm an economist in the civil service and think the apprenticeship programme is great and would highly recommend it. Over 4 years you get your undergraduate degree (no fees to pay), you get 4 years work experience, you get paid a good salary (depends on department) and at the end if you get a 2:1 or 1st in your degree you get a guaranteed job or you can go off and apply for other things.

Next round opens in Feb.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-government-economic-service-degree-level-apprenticeship

Sorry! Opens in Jan.

@TractorAndHeadphones,

We are trying to provide the OP with useful info for her life. She isn't interested in Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick. The slightly less elite Russell Group uni where I was a lecturer and admissions tutor did not accept Access course qualifications (not that I am defending that decision here) like hers. She is not focused on prestige.

I have sat through far too many meetings about the components of different types of league tables. I am generally wary of catering too much to student demands, but I believe the student satisfaction entry is a decent proxy for the care that academic and support staff show to students.

[quote poetryandwine]**@TractorAndHeadphones,

We are trying to provide the OP with useful info for her life. She isn't interested in Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick. The slightly less elite Russell Group uni where I was a lecturer and admissions tutor did not accept Access course qualifications (not that I am defending that decision here) like hers. She is not focused on prestige.

I have sat through far too many meetings about the components of different types of league tables. I am generally wary of catering too much to student demands, but I believe the student satisfaction entry is a decent proxy for the care that academic and support staff show to students.[/quote]
If the OP wants a job of the sort she mentioned then 'prestige' is definitely a factor. This doesn't necessarily mean LSE, Oxbridge or Warwick but a university that provides lots of relevant opportunities. While 'less academic' universities have strong links with local employers they provide less exposure to academic activities. Universities with more driven students often have student-led societies that collaborate with external bodies to organise essay competitions, policy consulting etc.

Of course it's not impossible to succeed from a less known university but it's harder. My parents knew nothing about the corporate world. My peers from lesser known unis had no idea that the stuff I mentioned above even existed. They just assumed that good grades and a part-time job would put their CV's on the top of the list.

I had a lot of relevant extracurriculars on my CV thanks to my 'prestigious' uni, got offers for competitive jobs.
Compared to DP's uni where he was the only one to even be called up for second round competitive job interviews. His peers all managed to get jobs but far below their capability. A combination of not realising how much extra work it needed but also not really caring. They were happy with anything. Which would be great if they did a generic degree.... but they did Computer Science.

I must reiterate that this has nothing to do with the Russell Group vs ex-poly sort of prestige. Rather, the demographics and aspirations of the student body. I got a lot of advice from people who had done interviews before. I had a lot of self-esteem issues due to my background but these people believed in me. In my final year I got quite a few 'coveted' offers! Now when I mentor young people and recruit many have the same story. Not even from top unis, places like Bath (not RG), Nottingham, etc. There are a lot of good universities. Don't underestimate the importance of having like-minded peers.

The only way you can find this out is by researching specific universities. Speak to current students, look at what student bodies they have, try to find out how much of the cohort have been employed in the sort of jobs you want. Be wary of employment statistics alone ; a supermarket job still ticks the 'in employment or in further study' box. Some unis even give students temp research positions to boost their numbers.

Btw as an academic I'm surprised you set any store by rankings especially student satisfaction which is based on surveys. There are a lot of tricks unis can use including giving students incentives to actually fill them in, never mind the fact that what satisfies students isn't necessarily what's good for them which you also mentioned.

Also @poetryandwine
Russell Group is self styled. Bath and St Andrews both very good, even having employer prestige, not Russell Group. Employers really don't care we go by specific unis.
A lot of RG unis aren't that great. York vs Bath for computer science is a notable example...

Hi, @TractorAndHeadphones,

Diverse opinions really do make MN an interesting place.
I think your post just above contains a lot of sensible advice but we have some differences of opinion. I will return to the good stuff later.

To start at the first paragraph, I trust that the OP has good reasons for homing in on the universities she has and, as I said, the Access course she did will only be an accepted credential at certain universities - rightly or wrongly. I do not believe the universities you cite are likely to accept the Access credential.

Also, we have heard from lecturers at mid-level Schools of Economics that their employment prospects are good. They don't mean retail, and neither does the league table: the only type of employment it captures is graduate jobs. I agree that the universities you cite have clear advantages, but in terms of the OP's life, so what?

I don't think students are so feeble as to be swayed by short term rewards into filling out the National Student Survey and inflating their ratings, which is what I believe you are referring to. And only Oxbridge are rich enough to bribe significant numbers of them with meaningful jobs - I've never even heard of that before. Oxbridge don't need to.

The RG isn't self defined; it correlates with objective measures of research power. But some excellent universities have opted out. And there are exceptional Schools in lots of unis. That keeps things vibrant.

OTOH much of what you say about the importance of using your initiative, about throwing yourself into the whole experience, surrounding yourself with like minded people, etc is spot on IMO.

Perhaps the most important thing is that once you have a foot in the door, where you went to university becomes less important with every passing year. As it should.

PS, @TractorAndHeadphones,

Sorry, a bit rushed - I meant to say that the type of university you cite (prestigious) is less likely to accept the Access qualification. Although @TizerorFizz said upthread that in a different subject Liverpool (RG) granted a friend of hers, a mature student, an exception.

@poetryandwine

Hi, *@TractorAndHeadphones*,

Diverse opinions really do make MN an interesting place.
I think your post just above contains a lot of sensible advice but we have some differences of opinion. I will return to the good stuff later.

To start at the first paragraph, I trust that the OP has good reasons for homing in on the universities she has and, as I said, the Access course she did will only be an accepted credential at certain universities - rightly or wrongly. I do not believe the universities you cite are likely to accept the Access credential.

Also, we have heard from lecturers at mid-level Schools of Economics that their employment prospects are good. They don't mean retail, and neither does the league table: the only type of employment it captures is graduate jobs. I agree that the universities you cite have clear advantages, but in terms of the OP's life, so what?

I don't think students are so feeble as to be swayed by short term rewards into filling out the National Student Survey and inflating their ratings, which is what I believe you are referring to. And only Oxbridge are rich enough to bribe significant numbers of them with meaningful jobs - I've never even heard of that before. Oxbridge don't need to.

The RG isn't self defined; it correlates with objective measures of research power. But some excellent universities have opted out. And there are exceptional Schools in lots of unis. That keeps things vibrant.

OTOH much of what you say about the importance of using your initiative, about throwing yourself into the whole experience, surrounding yourself with like minded people, etc is spot on IMO.

Perhaps the most important thing is that once you have a foot in the door, where you went to university becomes less important with every passing year. As it should.

1. Lecturers saying stuff doesn’t mean anything - what is the source? The Graduate Outcomes survey is what is normally used in advertising etc and captures all employment. This is usually used for figures which say ‘X percent of students in employment or further study after X time’. If they say ‘related’ jobs fair enough but that’s not what is usually used. Happy to be contradicted.

2. You misunderstand. It’s not about inflating the ratings. It’s sampling bias.
   The majority of students aren’t really bothered about things like surveys. So the only people who are likely to fill them out are the ones who have strong feelings. Again more likely to be the negative ones.

To counter this universities can offer students incentives to actually complete the surveys. A university which doesn’t bother as a consequence will have lower ratings although it’s not really the case.

3. Again you have no sources - you ‘believe’ that these good universities won’t accept an access course. Nottingham does. So does Bristol. I don’t know the exact requirements and whether OP’s specific qualification would meet them but you can’t say for sure that they won’t.

Fair enough that you have different opinions but you don’t seem to understand how data can be manipulated. And under the impression that OP’s uni choice will be restricted.

Maybe it will be. Maybe it won’t. Maybe if all the OP can go for is unis that aren’t that great and she just wants a job she should go for something else instead.

Either way the only way to find out is to talk to people at the unis themselves. No shortcuts. No looking at rankings etc etc. OP is already a self starter which is great.

Btw a placement year is a good idea OP depending again on the unis ability to help with placements.

I’ll stop here. Good luck and I hope you succeed ;)

@TractorAndHeadphones
I think whether Bristol will accept an access course for Economics is open to debate when the OP doesn’t have A level maths (if I remember correctly). What my friend studied was not so difficult to get into and didn’t specify subjects. It really does matter about institution and course. It’s more difficult to get onto a very over subscribed course.

I've got to say I think @firsttimekat has stepped in with the answer here. That programme looks amazing.

@Squashpocket
Except they are highly competitive! Again is an access course enough to compete with high grade A levels in appropriate subjects? Only an application will find out!

So interesting, thanks @poetryandwine and @TractorAndHeadphones.

I must admit I always thought Aston was quite highly regarded for business-type degrees, so maybe that also accounts for its high ranking in Economics? I do know it was one of the first universities to pioneer industry placement years, so maybe it also benefits from good links to business.

The 'prestige' factor really only applies in certain industries, I think. I don't know if it would apply in the sort of areas OP is potentially looking at as those are most definitely not my field! But I do know that in neither mine nor DH's line of work would it make much difference whether you went to Bristol or UWE, for example.