Uni vs degree apprenticeship in science

[Molly1418]

DD's school had an assembly last week about degree apprenticeships and it got my DD's attention that she might consider this option. She is doing Biology, Chemistry and Psychology A levels, she is in year 12. I was wondering any of you had experience with DC's doing degree apprenticeship in a science subject

Are there any? They exist in computing and healthcare. But i don't think there are any degree ones in anything scientific - there's a lab skills one at foundation degree level, and possibly some nuclear science ones at Sellafield, but very limited otherwise. Depending on what she wants to do I'd suggest the traditional uni route.

There are several engineering degree apprenticeships as well.

This may give you more info.
www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and-work-experience/apprenticeships/degree-apprenticeships#what-can-i-study

Yes - if Food Science counts? DC has just started a degree apprenticeship.

What does she want to do?

Our institution is looking to offer them soon in manufacturing and design, and business subjects, as well as engineering and nursing. I think their value really depends on what you want to do at the end. Eg a hands-on role in engineering, it might be a good fit, but training as a research scientist, perhaps less so.

Yes the advice I've had re engineering (from someone who hires senior engineers) is that he sees the academic content of a full engineering degree as non-negotiable. He warned me off degree apprenticeships for DS2, who's interested in engineering but fairly academic and on course for good A Levels. Just one point of view, but that's the advice I've had - basically, degree apprenticeships can be a quick route into employment but might be a barrier to promotion and seniority further down the line, in engineering at least. No idea about other sciences though.

An I have a totally different view! Degree apprenticeships all the way for me! An ex student did one for engineering through mazak and is earning more than me after three years. And I earn well.

I work in pharma @Molly1418 but I'm in Ireland
we do degree apprenticeship for QC Micro and QC Chemistry. 3/4 year degree programmes.
We pay 25k plus pension, health insurance, bonus and shares, university fees are paid and we give each apprentice a laptop also.

So there are science based apprenticeships around. I'd be surprised if there's not similar in the U.K.

And no for us they are not a barrier for promotion. They are, after all,trained by us in the company itself.

[quote stubiff]This may give you more info.
www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and-work-experience/apprenticeships/degree-apprenticeships#what-can-i-study[/quote]
Do you think they'd be very upset if someone pointed out that it's De Montfort, not Montford?

Fujitsu are obviously keen on degree apprenticeships, though.

Thank you all for all your responses. My DD is unsure which route to take, we are in disagreement with my DH so we are not great help! She wants to study in neuroscience field, biomedical sciences, gene therapy areas etc so not very sure at the moment. I think she should have the university life experience as later in life if she wanted to, it might not be the same as going to uni at the age of 18-19 - DH is very pro degree apprenticeship for obvious reasons she will not be in debt on the contrary she could possibly raise a deposit for her own flat!

I think they can still experience uni life without building up huge amounts of debt. I’m with dh all the way.

They are massively competitive though, so prob best to apply for both and take it from there.

@Molly1418

Thank you all for all your responses. My DD is unsure which route to take, we are in disagreement with my DH so we are not great help! She wants to study in neuroscience field, biomedical sciences, gene therapy areas etc so not very sure at the moment. I think she should have the university life experience as later in life if she wanted to, it might not be the same as going to uni at the age of 18-19 - DH is very pro degree apprenticeship for obvious reasons she will not be in debt on the contrary she could possibly raise a deposit for her own flat!

Well there aren't any degree apprentices in those fields so it's a moot point!

We will keep looking, there might be apprenticeships in the pharmacology area maybe, in fact she was also thinking of patent attorney but she needs to have an undergraduate degree in science or engineering! Think she will apply for both!

https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/?routes=Health-and-science&levels=6&includeApprovedForDelivery=true

This lists all approved apprenticeships.

Definitely apply for both! If they are degree/higher apprenticeships (level 6/7) they are hugely competitive. In every sector there’s often only a handful of places for the thousands that apply. The application process is pretty rigorous too with rounds of aptitude tests, interviews and assessment days. A lot have 6-8 stages. The government website lists them. They tend to be advertised October November but also throughout the year so it’s worth joining their alert system so you don’t miss an advert. Also go to the companies websites where she has an interest and see if they have any ‘school/college leaver’ programmes.

@PacificState

Yes the advice I've had re engineering (from someone who hires senior engineers) is that he sees the academic content of a full engineering degree as non-negotiable. He warned me off degree apprenticeships for DS2, who's interested in engineering but fairly academic and on course for good A Levels. Just one point of view, but that's the advice I've had - basically, degree apprenticeships can be a quick route into employment but might be a barrier to promotion and seniority further down the line, in engineering at least. No idea about other sciences though.

I work in engineering and am responsible for hiring staff at all levels. Degree apprenticeships are highly competitive and can fast track to promotions.

Engineering graduates come to us with an academic degree, but very little work experience.

Degree apprentices will have gained 5 years experience as well as the academic degree. They are not a quick route into employment as they are actually employment/job from the very start.

Over 50% of our managers (earning well over £70k) started as apprentices.

We don’t bother taking graduates in engineering now - go straight for the apprenticeship option. So a permanent job, with a good salary and a degree that we pay for.

I would guess that the two widely varying views re engineering are very dependent on exactly what type of engineering... it's a massively broad range.

For some areas of science - particularly newer 'leading edge' industries - the 'apprenticeship' stage is PhD or even postdoctoral experience.

It would be hard to do an engineering degree apprenticeship without A level maths, in my experience with a DC doing the same levels as your DD OP.
We looked into degree apprenticeships for my DC in pharma/med/healthcare/chem/biochem etc and there were only purely laboratory-based qualifications - so at the end the company would be wanting the apprentice to work in a lab full-time. And they were not all degree level either.

So really a meaningful degree-level apprenticeship seems to be only available for engineering, computer science or accountancy in my very humble experience.

Many other apprenticeships have been approved by the relevant agencies but that doesn't mean anyone is currently offering them!

It is very misleading and disappointing and we can't see how our DC can get a degree-level qualification in this field without the tens of thousands of pounds of debt, despite being perfectly willing to go down the apprenticeship route, if it were high-level enough...

Yes... If an industry/individual company thinks degree apprenticeships are a great idea and they want to be able to hire people who've done an apprenticeship, then they'll be the ones putting the time and money into providing apprenticeships. The fact that there are very few available outside a limited number of sectors tells you a lot. Pharms/life sciences companies will IME more typically provide internships for undergrads and sponsor PhD students, that sort of thing.

The only other things I would mention on a more positive note is that degrees in vocational healthcare subjects (not med/dent/vet) come with an NHS £2K fee payment at universities in Wales (don't think this applies in England and I don't know about Scotland, except that I think all degrees in Scotland come at a discount for English students as the Scottish students are getting free fees). But there is definitely and NHS grant towards fees in Wales. You would need to do more research into the specific courses, but I found details on Cardiff uni website

We looked into degree apprenticeships for my DC in pharma/med/healthcare/chem/biochem etc and there were only purely laboratory-based qualifications - so at the end the company would be wanting the apprentice to work in a lab full-time. And they were not all degree level either.

@user452369 I work in pharma and a lot of us in the QC dept started off in the lab...most do. It is a stepping stone really, most people never stay in the lab after 6 years...and even at that they become senior lab team members. A degree is necessary to work with product though so that could hold ppl back but MOST pharmaceuticals companies will pay ppl to complete their degree and/or masters.

@user452369

It would be hard to do an engineering degree apprenticeship without A level maths, in my experience with a DC doing the same levels as your DD OP. We looked into degree apprenticeships for my DC in pharma/med/healthcare/chem/biochem etc and there were only purely laboratory-based qualifications - so at the end the company would be wanting the apprentice to work in a lab full-time. And they were not all degree level either.

So really a meaningful degree-level apprenticeship seems to be only available for engineering, computer science or accountancy in my very humble experience.

Many other apprenticeships have been approved by the relevant agencies but that doesn't mean anyone is currently offering them!

It is very misleading and disappointing and we can't see how our DC can get a degree-level qualification in this field without the tens of thousands of pounds of debt, despite being perfectly willing to go down the apprenticeship route, if it were high-level enough...

All the new apprenticeship standards have been developed by employers, so there is usually a specific reason for them. The big one where I work is Quantity Surveying and this was developed due to a huge skills shortage. Lots of Uni’s have decided to run this apprenticeship degree.

Unfortunately, some standards by employers just haven’t been taken up by Uni’s.

The ones that are widely offered are, engineering (civics), ICT, Surveying, nursing and finance.

A friend's DC is finishing a degree apprenticeship in engineering. They got 4 A* and applied for uni as well - didn't get a Cambridge offer but had 4 other offers. They have already bought their first house, are guaranteed a job next year for the company and their starting salary is significantly greater than the starting salary of a junior doctor. If mine were interested in engineering it would be a no-brainer at least to apply. Although they haven't had a uni experience they have left home and are in a group of maybe 40 apprentices so it's not just like getting a job