How are 4 year language degrees funded?

[sergeantmajor]

DS is deciding between applying for History or joint History & Spanish. He would get a loan for his tuition fees but we would fund his living costs. For financial reasons only, we'd prefer him to do a 3 year degree, whereas most language courses are 4 year, including a year of study abroad.

However, I was talking to someone who mentioned that the year abroad is very inexpensive, with minimal tuition fees abroad and living costs largely covered.

Can anyone fill me in on how it works? (DS's school is no use)

@TizerorFizz

Sorry. Got interrupted!

It’s very important that language acquisition abroad for MFL students is still available for y3. If it’s not, the whole degree is dumbed down. This would not be acceptable and universities really shouldn’t have MFL courses that are 3 years. They cannot be good enough.

I think the Brexit brigade were just anti EU for everything. They were warned but didn’t care. After all stem is the mantra! It’s a truly appalling situation and it must change so y3 is still abroad. The British Council pays students so presumably can help with visas. University visas should cost less as the student isn’t earning. Let’s hope common sense prevails!

You can still have a year abroad within a three year degree.

@antoniawhite
Exeter shrunk its MFL dept around 12 years ago. It doesn’t have the breadth of some universities.

@crayray
Yes I know you can but that’s unlikely and not suitable for MFL degrees. They simply wouldn’t be as broad as they should be.

No, it didn’t. There was a threat that Italian was going to be cut, but in the end it wasn’t, and since then the Dept has expanded. Offering seven languages in MLC and many more, including Korean, Japanese, BSL and Cornish via the FLC means that Exeter compares v strongly to any other ML Dept.

My DD is doing the joint honours as described. Loves it!
I think there still is funding. Visas and reciprocity will die down as an issue once the new regulations bed in .

DD was in Spain last year, paperwork mid year was needed but could be done. Had internships with small monthly payments. Finances were okay though. I think Turing should work.

I did hear that one problem with politics and Erasmus was that YA students were quids in and the type of students who studied MFL were often of higher income families. I tell you that as a fierce remainer and a great believer in Erasmus. But statstically, that is an interesting point.

Good luck OP, a worthwhile degree.

[quote TizerorFizz]@crayray
Yes I know you can but that’s unlikely and not suitable for MFL degrees. They simply wouldn’t be as broad as they should be.[/quote]
Not sure what you're basing that on but there's no reason you couldn't spend year two overseas, developing your language skills and earning credits towards your degree.

@crayray
It is hugely dumbing down to go from 4 years to 3. Would you accept an MEng being 3 years? The same as the BEng? Or the MMath maybe? Just 3 years? Of course not. MFL must be 4 years to cover the work and language acquisition. It’s vital. By year 2, ab initio students wouldn’t be ready. Mostly students need to build skills over two years to make the 3rd year meaningful. They need to understand their uni abroad teaching! They don’t just work in coffee shops. It is dumbing down to reduce from 4 to 3 and it shouldn’t happen or it’s not the degree status is was. Or maybe no one cares……?

I would advocate 4 years should MLang too. Let’s be honest about it being better in that case.

[quote TizerorFizz]@crayray
It is hugely dumbing down to go from 4 years to 3. Would you accept an MEng being 3 years? The same as the BEng? Or the MMath maybe? Just 3 years? Of course not. MFL must be 4 years to cover the work and language acquisition. It’s vital. By year 2, ab initio students wouldn’t be ready. Mostly students need to build skills over two years to make the 3rd year meaningful. They need to understand their uni abroad teaching! They don’t just work in coffee shops. It is dumbing down to reduce from 4 to 3 and it shouldn’t happen or it’s not the degree status is was. Or maybe no one cares……?

I would advocate 4 years should MLang too. Let’s be honest about it being better in that case.[/quote]
You're obviously very passionate about this but I think you're being a bit overzealous. The four year course examples you give all lead to higher level qualifications. And most Bachelor degree programmes are 3 years. I know cultural immersion is important for language learners. But why couldn't an ab initio learner spend the year studying the language intensively in situ? Alternatively you could make it a four year degree for beginners and a three year degree for those who have studied the language to A-level.

As a language graduate myself I am an advocate for MFL degrees and really enjoyed my year abroad. But I think MFL departments need to start thinking more creatively and take a more flexible approach to the year abroad post-Erasmus, or the take up of MFL degrees will continue to nosedive.

@Sunndowne

My DD is doing the joint honours as described. Loves it! I think there still is funding. Visas and reciprocity will die down as an issue once the new regulations bed in .

DD was in Spain last year, paperwork mid year was needed but could be done. Had internships with small monthly payments. Finances were okay though. I think Turing should work.

I did hear that one problem with politics and Erasmus was that YA students were quids in and the type of students who studied MFL were often of higher income families. I tell you that as a fierce remainer and a great believer in Erasmus. But statstically, that is an interesting point.

Good luck OP, a worthwhile degree.

How does making MFL degrees more bureaucratic and expensive help students from lower income families? Now those students will just be even less likely to study languages.

State educated MFL students are not as many as they should be. We don’t encourage learning of MFL by restricting access to it. One MFL for gcse. Not two. Parents are against MFL - you see it all the time on MN. It’s not given any priority or prestige. It’s too difficult etc.

Yes I do believe very strongly that MFL degrees should not be 3 years. They do take as much learning as a MEng despite the BA attached to them. MEng is 4 years for a reason. If takes 4 years to get to that level - which is exactly the same as a MFL degree. What would be utterly wrong is to dumb down the MFL degree and pretend it’s just as good if it’s 3 years. It cannot be. Language acquisition to degree level must be done abroad. It’s hugely valuable. My DD did MFL and her university experience abroad was taught in her target languages as you would expect. How can you replicate that here? She picked modules that interested her. She had to do some translation, but her education was greatly enhanced by the modules she took at world class universities. Employers recognised this diversity of learning and interests.

There must be a way to fund this. I would bet a lot of money that Oxbridge won’t go to 3 years! So we will end up with 2 tier degrees - those for people with money at the best universities and the rest. That’s not acceptable.

Access to MFL is just getting more and more restricted - 7 universities have closed their language departments altogether in recent years apparently. I studied MFL at Sheffield, they are currently restructuring their language degrees (and not in a good way). Add to that Brexit and the loss of Erasmus and I can't see how it's going to improve anytime soon. If working class students didn't want to do MFL degrees when Erasmus funding was there, I don't see how they'll be able to do them now it costs £££s for a visa to study in France or Spain. Part of me wonders if the government just want MFLs to die.

I'm not even aiming this post at anyone, just screaming into the void!

@LaMagdalena

Access to MFL is just getting more and more restricted - 7 universities have closed their language departments altogether in recent years apparently. I studied MFL at Sheffield, they are currently restructuring their language degrees (and not in a good way). Add to that Brexit and the loss of Erasmus and I can't see how it's going to improve anytime soon. If working class students didn't want to do MFL degrees when Erasmus funding was there, I don't see how they'll be able to do them now it costs £££s for a visa to study in France or Spain. Part of me wonders if the government just want MFLs to die.

I'm not even aiming this post at anyone, just screaming into the void!

Access at GCSE and A level is more restricted too. Most places can’t sustain small classes at A level so it’s dropped.

@LaMagdalena
My DD looked at Sheffield for MFL and was very disappointed. DH went there for a different subject and had fond memories. Sheffield doesn’t attract the private school students as some other universities do and, as we have discussed, many state schools have given up on MFLs to a large extent at A level and made it difficult for students by only offering one MFL at gcse with no option for 2. MFL will end up being well taught at elite universities only and those who can attract private school students because they are already supplying many students.

Parents and schools not valuing MFL is a big issue and the government follows. Brexit showed we, as a nation, didn’t value our neighbours and ongoing rows show this. I’m glad my DD gift her degree before all this kicked off! What a narrow minded nation we are!

@TizerorFizz It's a shame your DD was unimpressed by Sheffield, I actually really enjoyed studying MFL there, and it wasn't that long ago! However from what I've read, they are moving the language classes on their MFL degrees to the language centre (where anyone can study a language) - dumbing it down basically

I think part of the problem is that many people consider MFLs a 'hobby' and I've seen lots of people on here say words to the effect of 'I got GCSE French but can barely speak it, so what's the point'. It's all a bit depressing.

@LaMagdalena
Sheffield stopped teaching one of the languages she wanted. But I despair at the general attitude towards MFLs.

Oh, was it Polish? That's the only language I've notice them drop altogether recently

Actually I think they used to teach Swedish too maybe? I hate it when the more unusual languages get dropped

They do take as much learning as a MEng despite the BA attached to them. MEng is 4 years for a reason. If takes 4 years to get to that level - which is exactly the same as a MFL degree.

Again, I disagree. You're comparing apples and bananas. There is no reason that a MFL degree can't be achieved in three years, including a year abroad. There's nothing about it that's superior to any other BA degree

@crayray
Of course there is!!! The students are learning at least one other language!!! Honestly. Of course they are not the same as English or History degrees. For a good MFL degree you study literature in the target language. Not your own language! That makes them wholly different. It takes 4 years to be able to do all that is required for the degree. If it was possible in 3 years, don’t you think they would have always been 3 years? As indeed BEng was back in the day until it was noticed there needed to be further learning for the brighter DC. That’s the rub isn’t it. 4 years will be for the higher achievers with parents who subsidise and 3 years for stat, poorer, and less good candidates. A two tier system. I am assuming you don’t know much about high quality MFL degrees! I despair that anyone thinks you can do joint honours MFL in 3 years to the same standard that is acquired in 4 years. That year abroad where you live and breathe your language and culture is vital.

@LaMagdalena
No. It was Italian. They offered modules but not joint honours. They had previously offered joint honours. I’m going back a few years though.

[quote TizerorFizz]@crayray
Of course there is!!! The students are learning at least one other language!!! Honestly. Of course they are not the same as English or History degrees. For a good MFL degree you study literature in the target language. Not your own language! That makes them wholly different. It takes 4 years to be able to do all that is required for the degree. If it was possible in 3 years, don’t you think they would have always been 3 years? As indeed BEng was back in the day until it was noticed there needed to be further learning for the brighter DC. That’s the rub isn’t it. 4 years will be for the higher achievers with parents who subsidise and 3 years for stat, poorer, and less good candidates. A two tier system. I am assuming you don’t know much about high quality MFL degrees! I despair that anyone thinks you can do joint honours MFL in 3 years to the same standard that is acquired in 4 years. That year abroad where you live and breathe your language and culture is vital.

@LaMagdalena
No. It was Italian. They offered modules but not joint honours. They had previously offered joint honours. I’m going back a few years though.[/quote]
Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. I'm not denying the value of a year abroad. I'm saying it doesn't have to be on top of three years at the home university. And you're very wrong when you suggest it's superior to any other Bachelor's degree. You're learning a new language, yes. You may also study some of the literature and culture of the relevant countries, but not to anything like the same depth as you would if you were taking a degree in History or Literature.

I value MFL degrees, I just don't seem them as any more special than any other honours degree. And I really reject the notion that because they've always been four years long, there's no other way of doing it. You must know how much the popularity of studying MFL has decreased. It's time to start thinking outside the box. Students need affordable degrees that will enhance their employability. They don't NEED to study French literature to become fluent in French.

It might not be “superior” but if takes longer because the student is studying in at least one other language. You have to factor in time to learn the languages to access, at times, complex literature such as that written in Medieval French. Just doing 3 years converts the degree to language studies or cultural studies and young people from poorer backgrounds will struggle because they cannot afford the year abroad to get a better degree. I don’t care for thinking outside the box. The challenge is to get everyone abroad not dumb down and accept defeat!

@TizerorFizz

It might not be “superior” but if takes longer because the student is studying in at least one other language. You have to factor in time to learn the languages to access, at times, complex literature such as that written in Medieval French. Just doing 3 years converts the degree to language studies or cultural studies and young people from poorer backgrounds will struggle because they cannot afford the year abroad to get a better degree. I don’t care for thinking outside the box. The challenge is to get everyone abroad not dumb down and accept defeat!

No you don't HAVE to be able to read medieval French literature to graduate in MFL. What is the average MFL graduate going to do with that skill? Other than read medieval French literature for fun...

BTW the phrase 'dumbing down' is incredibly patronising.

I didn’t say you had to read Medieval French. I said 4 years allows further exploration and breadth of learning, which could include such a topic. A MFL degree really isn’t about translation and little else. And, my DD certainly did gain from a broad course. Her ability to broaden her skills and learning was noticed by employers! I’m afraid you really don’t fully understand what certain employers look for. They do like people who study outside the box! That’s why classics grads can often do well re grad jobs. They show they have learning skills beyond the ordinary.

Dumbing down isn’t patronising when it’s a criticism of universities that seek to take the tuition fees but don’t deliver the quality of course that they should. It’s all about bums on seats and money. I value high quality learning. Not 3 year degrees which con young people into thinking they are just as good as the 4 year degrees, when they are not.

@TizerorFizz

I didn’t say you had to read Medieval French. I said 4 years allows further exploration and breadth of learning, which could include such a topic. A MFL degree really isn’t about translation and little else. And, my DD certainly did gain from a broad course. Her ability to broaden her skills and learning was noticed by employers! I’m afraid you really don’t fully understand what certain employers look for. They do like people who study outside the box! That’s why classics grads can often do well re grad jobs. They show they have learning skills beyond the ordinary.

Dumbing down isn’t patronising when it’s a criticism of universities that seek to take the tuition fees but don’t deliver the quality of course that they should. It’s all about bums on seats and money. I value high quality learning. Not 3 year degrees which con young people into thinking they are just as good as the 4 year degrees, when they are not.

I do know what employers look for thanks very much. Apart from your daughter's experience what makes you such an expert?

What makes British students so special? European countries haven't made up new rules to make life difficult for anyone, but British people will now largely be in the same pot as people from any other non-EU country applying for a visa

Yes I know, but wouldn't it have been sensible to continue to welcome British students? Especially given the two tier system we now have, whereas if you voted for Brexit but happen to qualify for an EEA passport everything can continue as before, but if you voted Remain and only have a British passport, you're stuffed. It would have been nice to see a sympathetic attitude, that's all. I VOTED REMAIN, I am not some Brexiteering idiot who is now wondering why everything has changed.

And just because our government is made up of morons, doesn't mean that European countries have to respond in kind.

Oh and I wonder why MFL uptake is decreasing . If you know you can't work in the EEA unless you have a very special skill, and the visa requirements even just to study there for a few months are ludicrous, you won't bother. I even wonder if I would have bothered doing German at university if expensive visa barriers would have been put in my way. So it just gets worse.