Medicine 2022 entry

[Monkey2001]

Support thread for aspiring medics.

We want all our DCs to succeed, whatever their school type. We share knowledge to help them to achieve their goals, celebrate success and support if things don't go well.

As we press the "send and pay" buttons on UCAS, we wish all our DC the best of luck in this tough year with so much uncertainty.

However, the bigger question is aren't the UCAT/BMAT hurdles and standard Medicine A level grade requirements there for a good reason? It seems to me quite bizarre that these can just be circumvented by just paying up. Or am I missing something?

Opoponax, I doubt this is the case. Buckingham's degrees were/are awarded by Leicester and have to meet standard. The issue is, in part, luck. Say applicants has good academic results, and has about a 25% chance of an offer at each place they apply to, most will get 2 offers but about 10% will get 4 offers, and about 10% will get none. DDs school used to warn that every year they had a couple with 4A* predictions who did not get offers. (This was true in DDs year, and DD only got interviews and a place in March.)

We had early warning because of DDs poor UCAT and illness which meant she was unable to take BMAT. She got offers at Bristol, which at the time used neither UCAT nor BMAT but only had places for 1 in 17 of applicants, and Birmingham, which at the time put emphasis on academic results. Neither of those medical schools would consider her now.

Her friend, who is incredibly academic but quiet, also failed to get a place, though did get one on reapplication. Both are now doing very well and I doubt any of their peers or tutors would see them as weak students.

If either were looking at no place in the August after reapplication it is very likely they would have looked seriously at Buckingham, and very likely that both would have had a shot at the Republic of Ireland. Not because they were not strong enough, but because they might fare better with criteria with a slightly different skew. They did not have the advantage of contextualisation, but did have the advantage of being able to pay, and the languages and 4 A levels that ROI looks for. Given the strong competition, decisions at each medical school are made on very small margins. For example, with a 1:17 ratio, did ticking the disability box give DD the small lift she needed over other equally qualified applicants. And was she further helped by the random chance that she had done her shadowing in the same speciality as the person interviewing her, the speciality that still interests her most.

There is a lot of good advice here, but advice that seems to assume that applicants fit the boxes, and then it is just down to strategy. I also find it odd that there is little focus on course approach and things like placement and intercalation opportunities. Applicants are different, and have different strengths and weaknesses, and fit is important. DD was at an academic school and most, like Stranger's DS, focussed on BMAT. The school advised to treat it as a two year process. This gave DD the chance in Y13 to limit her selection to places that she both wanted to go to and which might interview her, and took some of the pressure off. Second time round, with achieved results and BMAT and hopefully, a better UCAT, she would have had a wider, more certain, selection.

I don't think anybody says just apply strategically. My advice is always to work out which ones are likely to interview you and then select within those the ones which suit the way you want to live and learn.

What we see too much on TSR is people fixated on medical schools where they have no chance of an interview. One example I remember for 2020 entry was girl with excellent GCSEs (all 9s) but a weak UCAT (I think it was around 2500). She wanted to apply to Edinburgh and King's and was very resistant to Cardiff. We persuaded her to go to the open day, she loved it and got in. If she had not listened to the strategy advice she would have had no interviews and no offers. You often see people advising applying to no more than one which looks risky if there are three which would be safe.

@opoponax there are a lot of people who are very good at UCAT and A levels who do not manage to get offers, and in current times there is so much competition that people who would normally get in are not getting in. Buckingham interview, so I assume they know how to select people who will succeed on the course. There are other med schools which accept AAB, particularly if you have an EPQ. I mistrust A level grades anyway, there is such an element of luck that most people will not get a consistent grade on papers - DS1 in past papers got A around 80% of the time and A 20% of the time for past papers, and I think it is normal for people to cross grade boundaries. If you look at the national stats for Biology in 2021, all the people who would have got Bs in 2019 got As in 2021 (45% of candidates got A/A/B in 2019, 45% of candidates got A*/A in 2021). Of course some of the people who got As would have got them in exams.

It feels odd that there are private universities in the UK, but if they result in an increase in the number of places available to study medicine, then I would say that is a good thing.

Monkey, I don’t disagree.

However in the past when I have suggested that one approach might be to treat it as a two year process, posters will come on suggesting that gap years are impossible because of poverty. Weird, in that our observation is that med students tend (not all) to be quite middle class and reasonably, sometimes very, affluent. Equally DD’s gap year was self funding and though she did not earn a lot she started University with savings. Several on both her ski season and Camp America were not heading to University (eg catering students using the ski season as a placement.)

Each applicant is different, and I think it is useful to acknowledge this. Claims of poverty are almost used as a way of building barriers. Yes finance is a barrier for some, in the way that dyslexia could have been a barrier for DD. The thread might be less contentious if alternative approaches were not immediately jumped on. Or indeed if space were allowed to discuss fit for say the more academic student not vs those who are working flat out to get that A in chemistry.

I think, as @Monkey2001 says, it's a process that requires choosing courses that suit you and then applying strategically to your strengths. Some students have the luxury of choosing everywhere if they want but others are limited by UCAT. It's a shame there is no early BMAT as that does help inform decisions - any of mine with low UCAT are sitting it and doing 3/1 split as they have no real chance at UCAT Unis.
I know I mention cash but it's just because some people will be reading this who will feel very put off with the assumptions that Buckingham and Ireland are possible for everyone. Unfortunately the luxury of a gap year is not available to everyone too, as once CB (& other benefits) stops a lot of families can't afford to fund an adult at home. I want everyone to feel they can apply but also realise that not all opportunities are available to all. Understanding the limitations that come with lack of money is hopefully something we'd want our prospective doctors to have ?

Weird, in that our observation is that med students tend (not all) to be quite middle class and reasonably, sometimes very, affluent.

I think you might see a move away from this. This year it is going to be really hard for non contextual applicants to get interviews at Exeter and Birmingham. Others are trying to redress the balance. One of the reasons med schools use UCAT so heavily is because it is supposed to be equally accessible to people from diverse educational backgrounds. I think we saw a lot of disappointed candidates last year from the sorts of schools which used to be very successful.

@Needmoresleep I was merely a bit surprised at the lower entry tariff, no requirement for UCAT/BMAT and a very significant price premium, that's all. I wasn't questioning the quality of the actual degree, it is BMA accredited and therefore must be fit for purpose. The spirit of this thread is positive and to give non-judgemental and wide-ranging support to this year's DC and their parents to hopefully help them through a tough process. You were absolutely right to flag Buckingham as an option. I thought it was just worth adding in the price tag as, for many DC, it would be prohibitive. I am mindful that for my DS, although the process was stressful, as it is for everyone, it all worked out very well for him. Who knows what we would have done had it not gone well and had gone on to go through the process a second time and come out with no any offers and his vocation intact. In that situation, maybe we would have been encouraging him to consider Buckingham, who knows. We all just want the best outcomes for our children. I suspect the figures might be even starker than what you quote in the current climate too. I think DS was told that the four offer figure was only around 5% last year. I also think DC are really focused on course structure, placement and intercalation opportunities (it was all key for mine) but they are just trying to balance that with optimising their chances in an extremely challenging climate at the moment.

Understanding the limitations that come with lack of money is hopefully something we'd want our prospective doctors to have ?

Many years ago, one of the GP trainees where I worked was absolute incensed to be told that her apparent complete lack of knowledge of the maternity benefits system had been a factor in failing her DRCOG exam. Just not something she considered relevant for GPs to be aware of, apparently.

Monkey…agreed. Which is why there may be some good non-contextual applicants looking at Plan Bs. (RoI and Buckingham, even places like the Czech Republic.) One thing seems clear. The UK, despite the recent expansion, is not training enough doctors, so there should be jobs for those who attend appropriately rigorous courses overseas, especially courses that might allow for clinical training in the UK or RoI.

And yes, DD was lucky to apply when she did. Bristol then was a relatively low bar (AAB for contextual) and based on PS and interview. She and her friends, whilst acknowledging they would not get in now, do not see the later cohorts, who will all have had very high UCAT scores, as obviously stronger. Oddly though, there is now a much stronger representation from the big name private schools. In the past Bristol had the reputation of being very ‘contextual’ and those schools were openly flagging it as a risky choice.

I would add that the common Plan B which people on MN often quote, which is to take a related course and then try for graduate medicine, is becoming much more competitive, obviously more time consuming, and is also fiendishly expensive. If you were to do a whole career earnings forecast the 4.5 year Buckingham degree might prove the better investment.

Sorry cross posts as I was writing my answer and then distracted by a work call. I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing, insofar as everyone just wants to support this year's cohort to get to medical school, irrespective of background. I am just mindful that there will be people reading and not posting on such threads and it is really important for them not to be put off and to know that medical school is not just the domain of the middle classes and/or wealthy and there will be many fantastic doctors who are neither. I think @mumsneedwine makes a fantastic contribution in that respect.

Opoponax, yes exactly. Our DC will all have different experiences, but regardless of background they are all capable of being good Doctors. The ability to observe, understand and empathise is paramount.

I also agree that this thread should be aware of the diversity of experience. We are very lucky to have access to mumneedswine's experience of living and working in a deprived area. I hope my contribution from a mother of a dyslexic whose paths was inevitably less straight forward, is useful. In the past, though perhaps less this year, it can feel as if everyone else is picking up 4 offers. Yr13 is a key academic year and it can be very tough for the long haulers.

I personally believe that work experience is invaluable, for broadening horizons. DD worked in a care home for the summer when she was 16. The weekend chef, who was juggling childcare with her husband, impressed upon her that she had a duty to make the most of the opportunities she had had. I am also concerned that contextual is not the be all and end all. DD was aware of one student from a very non traditional background, who struggled, essentially because they had had little experience of the predominantly white middle class culture that is University. University is where you get to reach beyond the bubble you grew up in. Whether you can or not, may be as much about personality as background.

Yes @Needmoresleep and the qualities you list are so important for a doctor, much more so than just being textbook clever. Contextual processes may not yet be perfect but WP has to be a very good thing to get the best and most committed people into the profession. Also, not fitting in can happen at both ends of the spectrum. I studied at a top Grande Ecole (straight competitive full academic scholarship) where the fees were very expensive. Most of the students worked extremely hard and fared very well. The only one who was thrown out in my year group was someone from a super-wealthy background who kept going home to his polo ponies/country club weekends etc. and never really bothered fitting in.

Looks like the UCAT final stats are up?

Haha @Needmoresleep, interesting point on graduate route v Buckingham. I think we all take a sharp intake of breath at the thought of funding £171k to get through medical school, but you are right that the people who do a first degree and then do A100 as a graduate take 8 years and it costs £65k, of which £37k is not available as a student loan. So Buckingham costs £106k more, but you are a doctor 3 years earlier, and you have 3.5 years less of maintenance costs, so (surprisingly to me) looks like the better option financially if you can fund the upfront cost!

Yes @speedyhedgehog - Band 1 pretty rare this year. Only 14% compared to 30% last year and lowest % for many years.

The predictions on a drop from the interim results proved correct. 9th decile is 2850 - same as 2020.

Wow, £37k is actually starting to feel like a bargain

Monkey, you can formally be awarded the title of "Spreadsheet Queen".

I think some loans are available for Buckingham, in for similar "private Universities", like the ones who offer law and accountancy. It used to be about £1,500 a year, so not much of a dent, and no scope to work in summer holidays. Time to remind granny, if granny has the means, that funding grandchildren's education is a tax efficient way of avoiding future IHT.

Yes @SandyBayley Band 1 just felt like the norm last year. DS only knew one person who didn't get it.

As expected, generally in line with last year apart from SJT. This will probably mean Nottingham cut off will not be as high as we expected. I had not previously noticed how much lower VR scores are in general.

9% increase in test takers to 37,230 and I think there are usually 8.5k places for medicine and another 1k for dentistry, but some of them will be going to the deferred places, so it is going to be a horrible year. The worst game of musical chairs!

My daughter has applied for Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield. Favourite is Newcastle.
Her stats are;
UCAT 2840 band 2
5x 9 in Biology, maths, chemistry, french and physics
1x 8 design
2x 7 in English Lang and further maths
1x 6 in eng lit

As French grade A

Predicted A* chem A bio A physics

Volunteer at cubs and swimming coach. Done virtual work exp.

Lifeguard

Done NCS, DofE, spoken to a variety of healthcare - Hca, pharmacy, medical physicists. Lab techs, all grades of docs inc consultants and all grades of nurses.

Been into hospital for 3 days but limited observation due to covid.

Are her choices safe or does she need to change any? Just looking at the stats on UCAT 37k of participants for ? How many places. It's scary.

Monkey21 you replied last time so thanks for that, I am just an anxious parent as her first choice would be Newcastle- is she wise to still put that?

@coffeeandbiscuittime

Monkey21 you replied last time so thanks for that, I am just an anxious parent as her first choice would be Newcastle- is she wise to still put that?

Yes, Newcastle is a tiny bit risky, but probably fine I would say >90% chance it will be OK. The others are all very safe for an interview, but Liverpool had a dreadful offer to interview ratio last year (28%) so I would change that unless she loves it. Maybe Southampton, SGUL, QUB. Also consider Birmingham if her school (GCSE or A level) is on the contextual list (most non selective state schools). I might have said Leicester, but we are all worried about the number of people with achieved grades applying.

But she will get an interview at Liverpool and somebody needs to get the offers!

Thank you @Monkey2001 Leicester , Nottingham and Bham are out due to location - too near home-although I did look at Bham- same school but only 6th form contextual.
I will suggest the others to her but like you say someone has to get offers.
The unis she has chosen are all close to other family/friends so enough independence from parents but close enough to others if she needs support.
Never thought of myself as a helicopter parent until now 😂🤣.
So not looking forward to the next 10 months .
Thank you to all the regular posters - @mumsneedwine ,@GANFYD and all the rest who regularly contribute.

It looks like DD has got enough under UKWPMed for interviews at 3 of her 4 choices… not sure about Plymouth though 🤞🏼

@Needmoresleep

Monkey, you can formally be awarded the title of "Spreadsheet Queen".

I think some loans are available for Buckingham, in for similar "private Universities", like the ones who offer law and accountancy. It used to be about £1,500 a year, so not much of a dent, and no scope to work in summer holidays. Time to remind granny, if granny has the means, that funding grandchildren's education is a tax efficient way of avoiding future IHT.

The other thing to remember is that I am pretty sure you can still get your £9250 tuition fee loan to go towards Buckingham’s fees, as I am pretty sure somebody did that a couple of years ago

@GANFYD - I think you can only get £6,165/year in tuition fee loans from Student Finance England for degree courses at Buckingham (www.buckingham.ac.uk/admissions/external/grants/uk). Public universities aren't allowed to charge more than this without meeting OfS access & participation requirements.

I presume the NHS still pays tuition fees after the 4th year of study, although this would only be half a year at Buckingham.