Oxford or Cambridge advice and help needed.

[Puffalicious]

Hi all,

My DS is thinking of an application to either Oxford or Cambridge. He is very academic (Scotland, National 5s 8 at A band 1, Highers 5 at A band 1. Presently sitting Advanced Highers and additional Highers. He was school dux). He has been told by school (state) he will sit assessments locally but apart from that we are pretty much in the dark about which colleges to apply to and what the differences are. His dad and I went to universities in Scotland and it's very different.

Can anyone shed light on this? Or sign post me where to find the information? He will be applying for Mathematics.

He will also apply for universities here as he's not sure about the whole Oxbridge experience. He's very into music, gigs and DJing and wonders if his fellow students there would be like minded. Can you choose a college with more state students? Can he apply and defer like you can at other universities?

Thank you so much. His statement is due next month, so we need to get a wriggle on.

@Aurea has a son who is at Oxford from a Scottish State School, she may be able to help but he's not doing a STEM subject.
It's very unusual for state schools in Scotland to send kids to Oxbridge (it's not that common even from independant schools either, at least the ones who stick to the Scottish curriculum) so it's unlikely there will be teachers with experience but there might be some help available directly from the universities.

cherwell.org/2021/05/11/oxford-university-state-school-admission-intake-reaches-record-high-of-68-6/

Info here on state sector intake by Oxford college. The majority of students at every college come from the state sector. Wadham has a reputation for progressive politics.

My experience was that there was a good music scene at Oxford although we'd often go to London for clubs. He will definitely be able to find like-minded people- there are 12,000 undergrads there after all! I definitely wouldn't let Brideshead stereotypes put him off- the vast majority of Oxford students are completely normal people and as varied as anywhere else.

Oh and congrats to him on those grades!

I've got the impression Oxford and Cambridge aren't generally keen on giving deferred offers - however an exception seems to be Scottish students if they'd otherwise be a year younger than the rest of the cohort.

Hi Puffalicious

As previously mentioned, my DC is studying at Oxford from a Scottish state school but is not studying a stem subject though.

Regarding music, my DC is a very keen amateur musician and actually started setting up a band the summer before s/he arrived in Oxford. (S/he advertised on a student musician Facebook page and had a list of interested people and held auditions in the first couple of weeks of term. The band was quite successful in the Oxford music scene. You can see it on Facebook under Lemon Soul Band.

My DC's school did nothing to assist with his application so s/he did all the groundwork themselves.

All the colleges are inclusive now and it shouldn't be a concern regarding state schooling.

Let me know if you want to know anything more specific.

If he's applying for maths, there is a key difference in the admissions process that he should be aware of. Oxford requires candidates to sit MAT, which takes place in early November, i.e. after the Oxbridge UCAS deadline but before interviews. MAT scores have a bearing on whether you get an interview.

Cambridge interviews a much higher proportion of applicants. They also make a lot more offers than they have spaces available, with offers being dependant on getting high grades in STEP. STEP takes place in June and requires a great deal of practice as it's unlikely to be like anything he's come across before.

Both MAT and STEP are really hard. Psychologically, it would be a really good idea to decide whether he'd prefer to sit a high stakes exam in the next couple of months, or at the 11th hour.

And if he tries for Cambridge, it becomes particularly important to have a good insurance offer in hand, because lots and lots of talented mathematicians are rejected at the last minute based on STEP results. My eldest was one of them and is now happily established at St Andrews!

Google Oxford for Scotland. They've changed their approach and should be able to help you navigate a wee bit. Most Scottish students stay in Scotland (free) so Oxford has been struggling to get Scottish students (state and private).

You can ask if there is twinned college for Scotland. Each county in England has one but I think Scotland just has one (my hunch would be Hertford or Univ) but they can help answer questions about student Life/applications etc.

When he's considering colleges there are a few things that make a difference to Scots - Oxford is an arse to get to, so if you can store your stuff in college it cuts transport costs. If you can "live in" you it's a lot less expensive than private rent but means you have to vacate for vacations. Rich colleges have better access and hardship funds so that if your means can't support e.g. buying books or paying rent help is available (I think it was balliol used to have an informal thing that no-one should leave due to financial circumstances - don't know if that's still a thing).

Scottish students on average are six months younger than English students when they leave school, add in all the year out people and you can end up being the only 17 yo in a herd of 19/20 year olds - how best to tackle this is a good q for the formal university group I suggested you Google.

Thank you all so very much. I'm out right now and collecting him from TRNSMT later (he's in just element as it's all weekend). Some great advice and points.

I didn't know about the difference in timings achickencalleddaal all we were told is the name of the local school where he would sit the tests. He has an allocated teacher and a weekly UCAS class- he seems on the ball but not sure how many students they've sent to Oxbridge before. That info is pretty important, so thank you. He is studying Advanced Higher Maths at one of our universities (it's for chosen S6 in Glasgow as a bridge experience) and I reckon he'd want to have completed that first, so the June exam does sound the better option. He would have good backups, including Glasgow University - a great friend of his has just moved into halls here to start this year and he does love his home city, so staying home is something he's considering and quite keen on.

Toomuchis great points. I'll definitely forward the information on groups to him. I reckon this will be an excellent source. One of my niece's friends started at Oxford last year, but he was private school, so may not know the stuff we need to know. He will be 18 in the September, so not super young (I wasn't even 17 until a month after I'd started uni!) but he may want to defer based on what you abd others have said.

Aurea I'm going to chat to him tonight and see what specific questions he/ I have and I'll get back to you.

Thanks so much everyone.

www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/step will be helpful for Cambridge.

Thanks kitten

@Puffalicious If he's contemplating Cambridge - and therefore STEP - he should take a look at the online STEP support programme. Particularly if his school doesn't have much experience of helping students prepare ... and frankly, even if they do!

Although my offspring didn't make the required grade in STEP, they would still heartily recommend doing the STEP preparation if you are the kind of person who finds Maths fun. They used to do STEP preparation when their A Level class was covering stuff they found too easy

The other thing to mention is that some Cambridge colleges are reputedly not keen on students deferring offers in Maths. They think they will lose their edge by taking a year off. So if he's heading in that direction, some research about which colleges are more relaxed about deferred admission would be a very good idea.

Finally, you've probably also found this, but the Maths Dept has some useful information about the course and admissions here: www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/undergrad

Good luck with whichever path he chooses .

Snap!

Family member just finished Cambridge from VERY low achieving Scottish comp. (Arts subject)
Occasional issues during time there but none due to coming from state school. Friends from a wide variety of backgrounds. Really enjoyed the experience.
That said, mathmos are apparently a breed apart even for Cambridge. Basically all that matters is maths, maths and more maths

The geography /feel of the two cities is different. Cambridge, the university buildings basically make up the city centre (tho there are some outlying colleges and the University Library is a bike ride out of town) whereas in Oxford there are more non university buildings in between the colleges etc, feels more sprawling. Definitely worth trying to visit to get a feel of both places.

Thanks again, Achickencalleddaal great points.
Witch that's why I'm worried, he's so bright and loves Maths but he's definitely not a kid that it's all that matters to him. He's very sociable and the coolest kid I know (biased, but he really is!) he's interested in travel, politics, music, clubbing and he also got a city wide Geography prize. He just wouldn't fit with that Maths vibe that numbers are the only important thing.

I'd love to get down to visit both, but I just don't reckon we'd fit it in. I have w younger children, my youngest with significant ASN, but we have Oct half term, which is a possibility for just the 2 of us to nip away.

Thanks again all

Last comment to Vancleef thanks.

Don't worry about fitting in, mathmos are as diverse as any other group. Some are very maths focused, others have lots of interests, play sports, music, game etc.

But Oct half term visits would miss this years deadline.

Yup, I know Oct would miss the deadline. I've been to both places but he hasn't! Will see how he feels. Thanks.

My ds is an Oxford Maths student. Chicken has explained the difference between MAT and STEP which is really important, Oxford offer interviews based on MAT and by the time a dc is interviewed their chances have already risen to about 1 in 3.
Your dc might want to look at how many Maths students each college takes, they vary widely. Some take 8 or 9 a year, some only 2 or 3 . Other than that, not much to add as yoy have had good advice upthread. Good luck!

Is he doing the Oxford virtual open day on Friday?

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students

This gives a complete breakdown of admission figures from last year. Even if a college has a relatively low state school intake, it doesn't mean that it's a bastion of wealth & privilege.

Didn't know about the Oxford virtual open day! His UCAS teacher clearly not as on the ball as I thought! Thanks.

Also great info about the admission stats.

Cambridge have their virtual open week starting tomorrow with live events I think on Thursday and Friday.
I don't know enough to give advice but I do know that DD says there's a couple of people from her school going to do maths at Cambridge this year and they are excellent at maths but not obsessed by it and have other interests (she doesn't really know them so that's all I know!).

Don't be intimidated about visiting, yes they have some lovely old buildings but all the ordinary stuff too, we went for a weekend (i was trying to get DS2 to have Oxford on his radar and also it has really good museums) and stayed in air b&b that turned out to be in a rough and ready council estate out near Cowley. We saw all sides of Oxford on the bus into town!
Some of the Scottish unis have high numbers of "posh" students anyway, we called then "Rahs" in Edinburgh in the 80s, and St Andrews I think has more privately educated students than Oxford. Never stopped me or DS2 making friends or finding flatmates.
Your DS sounds cool enough to fit in anywhere!

OP, my DD was a student mentor on this programme www.clydesideproject.org She worked with a couple of students who attended schools with no history of getting students into Oxbridge and was delighted when last year's lad got an interview. It might be worth looking into.

From what I have read here, and knowing some students who have studied Maths, Oxford's entrance test followed by interview and exam grades is their way. Cambridge insists on STEP, which seems to be the undoing of a number of prospective students. Whilst my DD studied Maths/FM at A level, she was not at all interested in pursuing Maths other than the compulsory part of her NatSci degree. She wasn't interested in the STEP classes, preferring to do a music group at the same time!

Having met a number of DD's friends and course mates over the past 4 years, I can confirm that there are plenty of grounded normal students in Cambridge. Obviously they are intelligent and articulate but she has found herself a collection of lovely people who are a pleasure to be around. 2 have stayed here during the summer whilst undertaking work experience placements/observations and have been very nice to have around.

I have said this before on these boards but we did a couple of days in Cambridge staying in a Premier Inn (near the A14) then using the Madingley Road Park & Ride bus into the centre and doing a lot of walking. The magic words to say to porters are "I'm a prospective student, might it be possible to have a quick look please?"