Philosophy at Oxford

[OxanaVorontsova]

Any advice for y12 daughter from those with recent experience? Particularly thinking pre application reading, application and interview. She’s predicted 3 A*s (law politics and philosophy), state sixth form college.

She can only take philosophy alongside another subject at Oxford, such as PPE, philosophy & physics, philosophy & computer science etc. Given her A levels, PPE would appear to be the obvious choice, but the recommended A levels for PPE are history & maths.

I suggest that she narrows down her preferred degree course first, then looks at the A Very Short Introduction to..." books published by OUP. DD started with these for PPE at her UNIQ summer schools.

Is your daughter not doing any traditional academic subjects, OP?

Sorry, I mean any other apart from Philosophy?

Here's the page on applying for Philosophy generally. It points out that it will be in conjunction with another subject. (Nothing specific about A' Level subjects.)

www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/admission-philosophy#collapse388531

Yes she knows it’s with another subject, all that side of things has been discussed with the aspirations team at college who are great. Just wondered if there were any other tips I might glean on her behalf.

Is there a reason for Oxford and not Cambridge, given she could do philosophy by itself there?

If it has to be Oxford, I agree with @Hoghgyni that deciding which joint course she wants to apply for should be the main focus of her reading and research at the moment.

How is her maths? While not being required for PPE at Oxford, it is recommended, and the Oxford website has links to stats showing iirc that over 90% of successful applicants have A level maths. So if PPE is the most likely course for her I guess she should look at what's required in the aptitude tests, do some economics reading and maybe have a look at formal philosophical logic, which is a bit different from anything in A level philosophy and definitely more 'mathsy'.

Which of the other joint courses has she considered? Which are possible with her A levels? If she's doing philosophy of religion as part of her A level, is she interested enough in broader religious topics to consider philosophy and theology?

Otherwise I'm not sure which courses are open to her: the psychology, philosophy and linguistics one needs a science or maths, I believe. There's Classics ii but having a particular aptitude and enthusiasm for languages is presumably crucial there.

There are plenty of philosophy reading lists available and I think the AQA syllabus has a recommended reading section with extracts from primary texts. She could also look at /have a go at the philosophy aptitude tests. But unlike a majority of philosophy applicants she already knows she enjoys and is good at philosophy, whereas choosing a course at Oxford and maximising her chances of being seen as a strong candidate for the other subject(s) involved could be more challenging.

What extra curricular things is she involved in? I'd strongly recommend debating - the teaching style for PPE is very tutorial focussed with a lot of debate, argument and discussion. Is she interested in politics? Volunteering for a local political party? She needs at least one big thing beyond school. When I think of the PPE grads I know, they all had a lot more to them than the subjects - could also be high level sport.
She also needs to read a decent newspaper every day and consider reading something like The Economist - I think the FT offers free subscriptions to schools.
She needs to think beyond her a levels about what shows that she's bright, engaged and passionate about the course.

Thanks all. She’s not interested in PPE wants to do with theology.

Oh, cool! I did that many years ago - it's a great course, and there are far more options not exclusively focused on Christianity now than there used to be. I'm sure there will be reading lists for theology on the website. The philosophy aptitude test for philosophy/theology is different from the thinking skills test you have to do for PPE, so having a look at past papers and doing some practice certainly wouldn't do any harm.

Thanks @LoonvanBoon I’ll chivvy her to do that over the summer!

Edinburgh uni has MOOC's on Philosophy

I can't help feeling it's a pity the aspirations team didn't direct her to History and/or English - both of which would provide a really strong background for Theology.

Alevel law isn't even a requirement for law degrees.

In fact politics and law are middle weight a levels on a par with Psychology, Sociology, etc.

I'd do more traditional subjects for Oxbridge but I guess it is too late.

Subject requirements for Philosophy and Theology:

Helpful:

A subject involving essay writing to A-level, Advanced Higher, Higher Level in the IB or another equivalent can be helpful to students in completing this course, although this is not required for admission.

But with a subtext, Bloody hell, not that subject involving essay writing. Or that one. And OMG! Whoever thought we'd accept that? perhaps?

Or not...

Providing that any specific subject requirements have been met, all A-levels are approved for admissions purposes, with the exception of:

General Studies - not accepted by any course
Critical Thinking and Thinking Skills - not accepted by Biomedical Sciences or Medicine
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/admission-requirements/uk-qualifications

Not too concerned about the subject choices she's made tbh, that's not the question I've asked.

You may not be - but several people on the thread (and Oxbridge threads tend to attract Oxbridge people ...) have more or less diplomatically, conveyed their concern.

Perhaps you've had assurances from her school that for one reason or another it will be fine - but an Oxbridge degree is not simply a matter of getting in. Students need to be able to hold their own in tutorials, and follow lectures with at least a modicum of familiarity - otherwise one can quickly become discouraged and downhearted.

With neither English nor History in her A' Level repertoire (no matter how well she did at GCSE level), there's a danger that she might find herself missing many of the literary references in a lecture, or struggling, not just in tutorials but in writing essays because she really needs more depth in precisely those areas.

It's obviously too late to change subjects - so the best she can do is read huge amounts of decent literature - as that may be the prism through which both her tutors and her fellow students view the study of Theology. (But I daresay she's already doing this, anyway!)

Did she study any modern language prior to A' Level? Yes, we all have Google Translate, and libraries full of translations, but it can be enlightening to read some of a philosopher or theologian's thoughts in their own language and with some insight into their cultural background.

I think you're overegging it a bit now, @Edmontine. You really don't need to be reading texts in their original languages to apply for philosophy and theology. I'm sure it's a great thing to do for its own sake, but is probably not the best use of time for OP's daughter at this stage. Fwiw I didn't have to do that at any point in my degree. You obviously learn bits of New Testament Greek, where that's necessary to grasp what's at stake in interpretative issues but, unless you choose a language option, that's it.

There's no point in bemoaning a set of A level choices halfway through the 6th form, either, is there? They may raise eyebrows, I have absolutely no idea, but If OP's DD smashes the philosophy aptitude test, submits an excellent piece of work (philosophy) and shows she's got an aptitude for theology too, surely that's going to carry more weight?

It's a competitive course, and obviously OP's DD is going to have to do a good bit of reading/exploring the subjects this summer if she's really keen to give it a go. But I'd definitely advise engaging with philosophical and theological ideas in a reasonably focused way, not trying to read loads of literature to make up for the lack of English A level, or concentrating on translating texts rather than understanding concepts.

I presume she's looked at 'Theology and Philosophy of Religion' at Cambridge to see which course she prefers. Not an expert by any means but my understanding was that students preferring a philosophy element to their study and a wider course than the 'more traditional' Oxford Theology offering opt for this one

One is not 'better' than the other just slightly different in content.

Loon posters frequently criticize A level subject choices but as you say, that ship has sailed.

I would say that Oxford is about the most forgiving on 'softer' A levels among the top universities. That's certainly the case for Law. And one of my DDs had only three A levels from a top grammar one of which was Art and Design, which MN lore would have was totally beyond the pale for Modern History/ no chance etc. Oxford didn't appear to bat an eyelid. At least one of another DD's peers reading Law had A level in the subject, and this was at a college which had a very strong reputtion for the subject. I think there's quite a lot of rubbish talked about subject choice on MN, provided you have the aptitude that Oxford is looking for, for the particular subject.

I say 'only' three since at the time four was standard at her school, but she only wanted to do three (because Art took a lot of her time :)).

That was an unintelligible number of subjects in my first post, having now read what I wrote. Apologies.

I didn't at any point say you need to be reading texts in their original languages to apply for philosophy and theology!

I was talking about the benefits of studying subjects pre-University that might make undergraduate study more enjoyable. And using both my own undergraduate Oxbridge experience centuries ago and my completely current experience of the other of the two as the basis of my remarks. Of course every student will have had different preparation to the next.

For myself - I realised long after I graduated that the reason I struggled with one part of my subject was because I'd dropped the A'Level (for some ridiculous teenage reason) and so was never equipped to discuss the topic at the necessary level. And was frankly ignorant of whole areas. On the other hand I very often thanked the Lord when I opened a primary or even secondary text (written in English) and found paragraphs of French or German theorising - that I could just about manage without having to go and look for a translation.

None of us have any dominion over the OP's daughter's holiday reading. Surely we're all free to express our opinion?

Of course anyone's free to express an opinion, @Edmontine. But the summer holiday's only 6 weeks long and things become quite intensive early on in Year 13 for Oxbridge applicants. So @OxanaVorontsova's DD will have to be both selective and realistic about what she chooses to do.

I would encourage her to look round lots of universities and really have a look at the courses and degrees they offer.

I think it’s better to choose a course that looks really good than pick a course specifically to try and go to a certain university. Rather than thinking about pre-application reading and an Oxford interview she should be trying to think of what she wants to achieve from this, then picking the most appropriate degree course for her, whether that’s at Oxford or anywhere else!