"Nice" end of year email from lecturer (not)

[Badbadbunny]

DS has just forwarded me an email from one of his lecturers. When he saw the sender/subject he thought it was going to be "happy holidays" kind of email as they officially finish the year this week end and are all packing to go home.

What a shock when he opened it as it's a real old rant.

"Us lecturers have been working flat out all year....."

"I've started marking the end of year exams and am appalled at the standard of answers....."

"We've already lengthened the exam times to allow for technical problems...."

"We've already reduced the pass marks required...."

"You're all going to have to pull your socks up next year if you hope to get a degree....."

This is on the back of none of his lecturers actually being on campus all year, he's had no face to face teaching, seminars, etc all year. Many of the "live" lectures were actually recordings of the previous year with just a "live" introduction for a few minutes at the start from the lecturer. A few pieces of work he submitted before Easter still havn't been marked. Even work that this lecturer has marked hasn't included any feedback, just a "raw" mark with no comments, no suggestions, etc.

He's absolutely gobsmacked that a lecturer has sent that email and him, and lots of others in the groupchats have already complained to the Uni. It's not just this email they're complaining about, it's sparked them to complain about the other aspects too.

What a lovely ending to a truly miserable year for them!

@ShortBacknSides

It’s soul destroying to remember the vibrancy and excitement of those open days in 2019 compared with walking around an empty closed campus a year later.

But @Birthdaysybother - we've been in a global pandemic! Sitting in small (often crowded rooms) speaking was one of the prime ways for this nasty (sometimes fatal) disease to spread.

Whenever parents come in here to complain about "universities" just who do you think you're criticising? Do you not think? We've all been hit by this - and in the UK, universities have been pretty much bottom of the list in terms of government thinking - viz. the 4-5 days' notice we had of the January 2021 lockdown. My department was prepared to go back to in-person teaching from 11th January, but we couldn't. It was against the law.

So, you know, what did you expect individual teaching staff to do? Risk our lives to teach your kids?

Obviously, there couldn't be F2F when Govt regulations prevented it.

BUT, what about the months when it could have gone ahead, but it didn't in lots of Unis. I.e. Sept/October/November/May?

Why did some Unis, last Summer, tell their staff to work from home for the entire year?

How about some honesty and transparency about future plans? Yes, we know things may change for the worse, but it does seem that last Summer, the Unis were telling students one thing, but knowing that reality would be different. In my eyes, that's dishonesty!

but it does seem that last Summer, the Unis were telling students one thing, but knowing that reality would be different

You're assuming we knew - we were often waiting for Government decisions, with a week's notice.

So many times, academics on MN have explained:

• with social distancing, many teaching rooms were unusable
• universities have diverse populations of students & staff - as employers they have a duty of care towards employees who are older, CEV, etc. Ditto for students
• at my place, we prioritised in person teaching for lab/practical based teaching, and we prioritised 3rd year finalists over 1st years.
• timetabling was horrendous
• Universities are not schools; they are complex large communities

I know at my place, in a fairly rural area with very low C-19 rates until last October, when they multiplied literally 10-fold because of the influx of 20,000 students, the university senior management had to do daily work in liaising with the local health authority & council to reassure them that there was little "gown to town" transmission. Local people who live here were justifiably anxious.

So it was really complex. You have one or two DC at university; we're dealing with complex organisations of 10s of 1000s of students.

March 2020, we did not know what we would be facing in September/October. I know my team had about 4 different plans, of varying complexity.

I also know that we were planning for weeks before our incompetent government announced measures on March 23. And we kept planning, even to having contingencies for January lockdown. Which happened.

Just think about it for a bit - instead of getting so fired up about universities' "dishonesty."

Apply the charge of dishonesty to an incompetent national government, for whom universities were a bare afterthought, and who knowingly allowed C-19 infected patients to be sent to non-COVID care homes, thus pretty much killing residents.

It wasn't Vice cHancellors of burnt out university tutors who said "Let the bodies pile up in the streets" - we were all trying to keep your DC safe, FFS!

@ShortBacknSides. You appear to have read my observation of how sad closed campuses look and interpreted I think all lecturers should have been risking their lives teaching face to face and everything cracked on as normal. Not what I said!
Universities do need to get back to normal like every area of society why would you disagree . That’s is what we are hoping July 19th will facilitate .And you do run the risk of disengaging students in future if normality is not returned soon. I am sure every university across the country is aware of this and has discussed this. It’s a given with any business just like shops in the high street feel the threat of online
What I am hearing from you though is excuses why face to face next year might not work which is a bit scary
So 2 students want to carry on online does this mean the other 98% should as well . When students joined this course in 2017/2018/2019/2020 it was marketed as a face to face course if the 2 don’t want this anymore it is their problem. They and everyone over 18 will have had the opportunity to have been double vaccinated by then, risk will hopefully be minimised but people are free to assess their own risk and choose their own action and there are online alternatives like the open university which exist so there are options for them. Universities will never be able to please everyone
Ditto with 8.30am starts universities offer this, students choose to turn up or risk failing it’s that simple it shouldn’t concern you and don’t offer online to accommodate this reason . The world of work will not facilitate lie ins . It’s a lesson they need to learn

@ShortBacknSides Universities who had already told staff not to attend campus for the year certainly “knew” there’d be no face to face yet continued to promise blended learning to students. How does that work?

@ShortBacknSides

but it does seem that last Summer, the Unis were telling students one thing, but knowing that reality would be different

You're assuming we knew - we were often waiting for Government decisions, with a week's notice.

So many times, academics on MN have explained:

• with social distancing, many teaching rooms were unusable
• universities have diverse populations of students & staff - as employers they have a duty of care towards employees who are older, CEV, etc. Ditto for students
• at my place, we prioritised in person teaching for lab/practical based teaching, and we prioritised 3rd year finalists over 1st years.
• timetabling was horrendous
• Universities are not schools; they are complex large communities

I know at my place, in a fairly rural area with very low C-19 rates until last October, when they multiplied literally 10-fold because of the influx of 20,000 students, the university senior management had to do daily work in liaising with the local health authority & council to reassure them that there was little "gown to town" transmission. Local people who live here were justifiably anxious.

So it was really complex. You have one or two DC at university; we're dealing with complex organisations of 10s of 1000s of students.

March 2020, we did not know what we would be facing in September/October. I know my team had about 4 different plans, of varying complexity.

I also know that we were planning for weeks before our incompetent government announced measures on March 23. And we kept planning, even to having contingencies for January lockdown. Which happened.

Just think about it for a bit - instead of getting so fired up about universities' "dishonesty."

Apply the charge of dishonesty to an incompetent national government, for whom universities were a bare afterthought, and who knowingly allowed C-19 infected patients to be sent to non-COVID care homes, thus pretty much killing residents.

It wasn't Vice cHancellors of burnt out university tutors who said "Let the bodies pile up in the streets" - we were all trying to keep your DC safe, FFS!

All of this!!

I'm sick and tired of people saying 'schools have managed ....' Well, news flash. Universities are not schools and we've been working to a different set of rules and guidelines. And rightly so.

I taught on campus for as long as it was legal to do so- guess what? hardly anyone turned up.

It's our intention to be back to normal in September BUT if at any point social distancing is a requirement then we can't offer 'normal'. We just don't have the room.

People underestimate the impact to governments cock up of A level results. For many universities that meant taking more students than they'd planned for making teaching on campus impossible.

Universities who had already told staff not to attend campus for the year certainly “knew” there’d be no face to face yet continued to promise blended learning to students. How does that work?

Blended learning doesn't have to be on campus. Live, online teaching via Teams or Zoom is still classed as f2f teaching.

@TheDevils that’s true but it’s also true that this model of F2F meant that students did not need to come to campus and commit to considerable accommodation costs. Something that the Universities singularly failed to explain. In fact in many cases they actively encouraged students to sign accommodation contracts in the full knowledge that their courses could be completed from their bedrooms at home.

I appreciate that Universities had their hands tied financially but that is not the fault of naive 18 year olds and their parents many of whom have experienced considerable financial hardship as a result of this decision..set in this context it is understandable that people want some clarity from Sept and also that the trust of students in the University administration has been broken.

[quote GlencoraP]@TheDevils that’s true but it’s also true that this model of F2F meant that students did not need to come to campus and commit to considerable accommodation costs. Something that the Universities singularly failed to explain. In fact in many cases they actively encouraged students to sign accommodation contracts in the full knowledge that their courses could be completed from their bedrooms at home.

I appreciate that Universities had their hands tied financially but that is not the fault of naive 18 year olds and their parents many of whom have experienced considerable financial hardship as a result of this decision..set in this context it is understandable that people want some clarity from Sept and also that the trust of students in the University administration has been broken.[/quote]
My university doesn't own any accommodation so I can't really comment too much about that.

I know it's been a really shit year - but that goes for us academics too. I'm really hoping we get back to normal in September.

Is it a live science degree?
Because these guys may have been working in research in the labs, for covid or other, and that would explain the working flat out.
Still, it does not justify the behaviour at all.
And they are meant to provide the teaching and marking, whatever happens.
Ranting like this is not on. I am glad they did complain indeed.

They may not own the accommodation but many had given guarantees of rental yields to student accommodation landlords such as Unite and other large owners of halls of residence. If the students didn’t come then the Universities would have had to cough up the guaranteed amount which was pretty onerous.

Actually universities which owned their own accommodation had less of a problem although they may still have financing to pay they also had as asset to back that finance and they could be more flexible .

That’s really shocking and demoralising.

What I like about university is that I’m accountable to myself, not the lecturers. At school I always felt like I was trying hard to please the teachers rather than myself. The space between me and the lectures at uni (mainly due to marking anonymity) has encouraged me to work hard purely for my own benefit. I reckon that’s healthier. I know where my mental health was at when I was writing each essay, and I know how much effort I put in.

That kind of email crosses the line and and would have me racked with guilt even if I’d done alright.

I remember a similar rant from a lecturer in the final year of my degree. He told us he was appalled with our exams, it as clear that nobody had put in any effort, etc. I was very upset, thinking I'd failed and wouldn't get on to the postgraduate course I'd applied for. When we got the results, I had done well, and of course the students who hadn't put in any effort didn't take notice of the lecturer's rant anyway!

I'm now a lecturer myself, although I was on mat leave most of this year. It has been hard for lecturers, and some students have made it harder (by blaming us for university policy or national lockdowns!) Several colleagues have been off with stress or MH difficulties for parts of this year. That doesn't make it acceptable for your DS' lecturer to take his frustrations out on his students.

[quote user1497207191]@ShortBacknSides Universities who had already told staff not to attend campus for the year certainly “knew” there’d be no face to face yet continued to promise blended learning to students. How does that work?[/quote]
Universities can recall their staff to campus whenever they want. If the universities you are talking about (which is by no means all of them) had decided it was safe, they could have recalled their staff immediately.

At the university where I work, we have taught in person whenever we have been allowed. At various times in the pandemic I have been told not to be on campus at all, to be on campus only if it is essential to do my job, to be on campus to teach and to leave as soon as the teaching is done, to be on campus if I find it difficult to work at home. Other staff have been told different things, depending on their role. It has changed over and over again, and the university can do that, it is in our contracts and it will be in all staff contracts wherever they work and whatever their role.

Universities can recall their staff to campus whenever they want. If the universities you are talking about (which is by no means all of them) had decided it was safe, they could have recalled their staff immediately.

Exactly. We certainly weren't told we would be wfh for a year. It was always in line with government guidelines so changed frequently.
We were expected to do on campus teaching when we were allowed to and we did.

@TheDevils

Universities can recall their staff to campus whenever they want. If the universities you are talking about (which is by no means all of them) had decided it was safe, they could have recalled their staff immediately.

Exactly. We certainly weren't told we would be wfh for a year. It was always in line with government guidelines so changed frequently.
We were expected to do on campus teaching when we were allowed to and we did.

Yes, indeed, some Unis have handled covid better than others. That's the whole point - like GP surgeries, the lack of consistency is the problem.

Yes, indeed, some Unis have handled covid better than others. That's the whole point - like GP surgeries, the lack of consistency is the problem.

I agree but there is very little we can do about that. There has always been inconsistencies as every university is an autonomous organisation.

For students choosing universities this year I would highly recommend they look at how the university has managed this last year.

@TheDevils

Yes, indeed, some Unis have handled covid better than others. That's the whole point - like GP surgeries, the lack of consistency is the problem.

I agree but there is very little we can do about that. There has always been inconsistencies as every university is an autonomous organisation.

For students choosing universities this year I would highly recommend they look at how the university has managed this last year.

But we're back to the honesty/transparency issue. Uni's aren't going to put a note on their website saying "Sorry, we messed up but will try harder next time" are they? The only way to find the reality is talking to existing students and reading the online student forums and other social media.

It's a shame they aren't being forced to put proper statistics on their websites, i.e. percentage of teaching done in each way, on a course by course basis. But then again, they were always cagey about that kind of information even before Covid and it's long been known that the "specimen" timetables used in open days etc often bear no resemblance to reality.

But we're back to the honesty/transparency issue. Uni's aren't going to put a note on their website saying "Sorry, we messed up but will try harder next time" are they? The only way to find the reality is talking to existing students and reading the online student forums and other social media.

But that forms part of the research process anyway. I'd advise prospective students to do that anyway!

It's a shame they aren't being forced to put proper statistics on their websites, i.e. percentage of teaching done in each way, on a course by course basis. But then again, they were always cagey about that kind of information even before Covid and it's long been known that the "specimen" timetables used in open days etc often bear no resemblance to reality.

If that's the case then universities are breaching CMA regulations and students would have a right to complain.
Universities have to be transparent and that includes teaching methods and time spent in lectures, seminars etc.
Obviously this year has seen universities have to make last minute changes but the OfS and the universities minister has made it very clear that if universities have failed to deliver what the promised then students should complain.

It is important for prospective students to do their research, but it is also important that they reflect on the findings of this research and what it really means now and for the future.

Different universities have faced very different circumstances. I would guess my university would come out fairly well in terms of our students' satisfaction with how we coped with the pandemic, but in truth we aren't known as a particularly supportive university in normal times and were very much helped by both our geography and pre-existing financial strength.

The challenges we faced were very different, and in some respects somewhat less, than those faced by places like Manchester, Imperial or LSBU. These universities may have coped terribly or they may have done the best they could in the circumstances they faced. The fact that they did not do exactly the same as my university with its more favourable circumstances does not, in itself, mean much at all if prospective students are considering how things might be post-pandemic.

Likewise with forums and social media. If we were to use this site as a gauge of which universities are good and have done well in the pandemic, we would conclude that Oxford, Cambridge and Bristol are all terrible. On the other hand, the two universities that have shockingly devalued their degrees to the point that people are describing them as having the same value as a Muller Corner lid, and the university that has taken the opportunity of the pandemic to describe an entire course and its students and graduates as 'an Aldi product', they are completely fine, because no-one is talking about them here.

And add to that @Phphion that people tend to comment on something when they have a complaint. Just as newspaper rarely report good news, people who are largely satisfied with their degree (or their DC's university) rarely complain or rant on social media or MN. It's clear that several PP have axes to grind, but I have enough experience of universities (nationally & internationally) to know that there are several sides to any situation where a student is apparently badly treated ...

Students doing research ahead of applying is very important. However, it is also important to keep in mind that a lot of Russell Group (research intense/prestigious etc etc etc) universities may not come out on top when it comes to the student experience. But they are also the ones that employers look to when it comes to generic graduate jobs. So whilst I would always advise my students to focus on the course, university experience etc - if you are going to spend 50/70k on a degree (and in the UK, unlike in the US, all degrees cost the same) it would be naive to disregard the fact that the top ones will get you a job. I appreciate that this is not true for all subjects but if anyone is taking a social science/humanities subject - this is something to keep in mind.

Absolutely. In fact if the students aren't happy that might mean the university is good as they are being made to work hard. I have never really thought student satisfaction was anything to go by at all.

In mmy view universities shoudl have and can now if they have to litigate to be at the forefront of opening up and forcing Government hand. Eg on Friday 5 airlines have a judicial review against the state. I didn't see much litigation from the universities fighting tooth and nail to be face to face. I saw them being as cautious as can be rather than using the science to prove it does not in most cases harm young people much and therefore in the greater good to allow mixing and as close to the university experience as possible.

When will my 2 two who finished in 2020 for example get their graduation ceremony? Why have we had no emails or apology about it?

Why can't I know now if my twins' September course will be 100% online like this year or face to face?

@Phphion we can’t talk about those universities because we don’t know who they are. Will you tell us who is disparaging their own degrees and who is devaluing them? Isn’t that what this site is for, to share information that helps us to parent well?

Obviously I'm not suggesting students only use Social media and student opinions in their research. I know it's far more complex than that! I used to work as a careers adviser and have worked in education/school liaison at a number of universities before becoming an academic.

But the student voice can be insightful and can be very influential- there is some very interesting research on how people view information from different sources ( prospectuses, websites, staff, students, league tables etc) and the student voice has been shown to be effective which is why universities use student ambassadors and student insights. Chatting to students at open days and asking about their experiences can be very useful.

Ah @Phphion is this part of what you are referring to?
Lots on Twitter. Sounds like there are a lot of students who have been let down