Cambridge and Oxford - ongoing chat for those with a student currently studying there

[DadDadDad]

Some of us have found these threads helpful, so I'm starting a new one to take us through

...end-of-year exams (and parties)

...homecoming for the vacation (and hibernation aestivation for this thread?)

...return in the autumn (and more normal college life?)

Posters old and new welcome to join the discussion. Any tips for finding a summer job?

Oh, and for reference, I have a DS just completing his first year in a small humanity in a tiny college.

I would also say that a 'high flying', or 'very high paying job' is anathema to plenty of Oxbridge grads, in spite of the lemming like rush to Magic Circle firms etc etc.

a 2.1 from Oxford is still probably harder to get than a first from Bristol/Warwick/Edinburgh etc. It definitely is a damn site more impressive than a high first from any number of ex-poly 'universities'

That's a bit unpleasant about students' achievements from ex-polys, even without the bad spelling.

And yes I do have kids with Oxbridge firsts and no I don't have any kids with ex-poly firsts.

I find it weird to measure success by salary after graduation. Surely it depends what your life aims are?

A significant proportion of graduates from PhysNatSci go into finance/banking. Perhaps all that maths helps.

DS has no ambitions in that direction. He just wants to be a scientist. His plan A is research / academia. His plan B is industry. Neither are particularly known for high salaries.

Well exactly Ironoaks. Obviously lack of money creates enormous stress and hugely increases the chance of unhappiness but the reverse is less likely to hold true.

And hate to say this pfizzyphanta, but plenty of students at Oxford manage a wildly good social and sporting (and/or political/ musical etc etc) life, have a partner and get a first without spending too crazily long poring over books in the library. Oxford ideally teaches students how to work smart. Obviously lots of students can't manage this, but it does seem to happen enough to make your premise false, that it's either a first and no play or a 2.1 and play, because it really isn't.

That's all well and good, but a 2.1 from Oxford is still probably harder to get than a first from Bristol/Warwick/Edinburgh etc.
I think that is completely untrue. There are lots and lots of very bright and hugely talented students who are not at Oxford and who have worked hard to achieve firsts and upper seconds from other universities. To say that a 2.i Oxford degree is better than a first at basically all other U.K. universities is an elitist and outdated notion and, given the very low number of 2.ii and 3rd class degrees given by Oxford, is effectively saying that the Oxford degree outranks all other degrees in the country. In my opinion, that is rubbish.

Hi @pfizzyphanta!

My daughter has just finished her fourth year at Cambridge and has just received her MPhil result. She did not apply to Cambridge, and turned down an Oxford offer, for her PhD. She was desperate to get away from that milieu.(She applied to Cambridge in the first place only because of one particular course which is not available anywhere else in that form. Purely academically, that proved a wise choice. )

How people feel about their degree class is about wellbeing and core self-esteem, like so much in life: academically, some are happier with an Upper Second and some are unhappy even with a First. ... And this applies to every other combination of degree class and happiness quotient and relationship status and extracurricular activity you can think of. Professionally, we can say something similar, whatever the level of earnings.

Each undergraduate experience is as unique as each individual personality is distinctive. As such, each should be valued and, I think, valued equally, Oxbridge or otherwise.

My observations and, more importantly, those of recent school alumni I have worked with, broadly echo those of @goodbyestranger.

Me and a friend tested the theory (in a very unscientific way) that it is harder to get a first at Cambridge or my Uni. We were both doing a very similar course. We submitted each others course work or collaborated. When they were submitted as me we got 65 - 68% the same submissions submitted to Cambridge we always got over 70%. I know it was only one module.

Oh dear. This previously supportive and friendly thread has become rather unpleasant.

Way back when I was at uni, I got a 2i in my part 1. I remember the professor telling me that to get a first, I would need to rein in my social life and study really hard. However, I was clearly able to have the good social life and get the 2i so I thought "sod that" and carried on with the social life. That was in the 1980s.

Things are different now. Youngsters work much harder than they did in my day - not just my own DDs but those I teach too. They are more clued up about the syllabus and course requirements of public exams than ever I was. I remember going to a course right at the start of my year 13 (then upper sixth) devoted to my Music A level as it was a new course. I went with the other girl doing the subject. We learned loads of things that we had no idea would be in the exam. When we went to the set works workshops, we realised that our teacher was poorly prepared so we ended up buying revision guides to plug the gaps. Now, every kid can see their syllabus online and a year after they were released/sat, they can see past papers. They are far better prepared. Teachers are way more accountable. My education pre-dates Ofsted and I went to a private school - one reason I would never have sent my DDs to one. It claims to be wonderful (and may be now) but I loathe girls' schools and I had a bad time there.

My DDs have a brilliant work ethic. However, they aren't one-dimensional study robots. When at school, they both learned 2 instruments and danced twice a week. They did really well though GCSEs and A levels with those extras so wanted to see if they could carry them on at uni. DD1 was told by a friend in her college that doing 2 extra curricular things was manageable, three was too much. Each year she has slightly varied what she has done, but it has been fairly accurate.

I would never criticise former polytechnics; my PGCE is from one which, at the time, was regarded as one of the best in the country for music. Polys had fantastic links with industry and as a result, their courses were tailored better for employment than some of the 'drier" courses at the red-brick/Oxbridge/older unis. I don't know whether or not that is the case, but I would assert that a first from anywhere is better than a 2ii from Oxbridge.

Presumably according to @pfizzyphanta DD1 will end up in some poorly paid scientific job. Do you know what? I couldn't care less. All I want for my DDs is for them to be happy and healthy. If they never pay back their student loan, fine by me. As long as they have a roof over their head, food in their belly and someone who loves them, what else do they need? It's the scientists who are the people that have done the most to get us out of the current situation, not the financiers and certainly not the politicians.

Thanks for that, @Malbecfan.

My wife is a music grad who did a PGCE (Primary but with Music specialty) at what I think was a college of higher education rather than a poly, but certainly not a "prestigious" university. I certainly wouldn't assume that Oxbridge would be the best place for more practical / vocational courses like that. In fact, I did my PGCE at Cambridge, and while there were clearly some leading academics in the education department, I wonder if they could have done a better job on helping me acquire the practical classroom skills I needed.

Interestingly, even back when I graduated, very few Cambridge graduates went into teaching - there is definitely an undercurrent of people who think going into teaching is a "waste" of an Oxbridge degree. (Especially if you have a First in Maths from Cambridge - my mum had conversations with people with that mindset back in the day). So, I agree that it's better to pursue what you love than see Oxbridge as a passport to the land of huge salaries (and seeing sacrificing your social life as the price of entry).

I do note that you said a first from anywhere is better than a 2ii from Oxbridge, which seems to be conceding that a 2i from Oxbridge might be as strong as a first from many places...

now I know this is controversial but just wondered if it is only us feeling like this. As we all know going to uni is expensive, no surprise there. But comin from a middle earning family DS has felt like one o the poorer students. There are some v rich students from private school backgrounds and at C we expected that. But the students from poor backgrounds seem to have so much from bursaries etc that they are actually very well off in student terms. Some of them have actually managed to save several thousand pounds in their first year. I am all for encouraging diversity and overcoming social barriers. Just cant help feeling that those in the middle are at a disadvantage. There are several students in DS college whose parents are not together so assessed financially only on the mothers earnings but get bursaries etc. One such student the parents are not together but live in the same house!

We are also a middle income family, but I don't feel the same way at all.

My Cambridge DD1 doesn't get a bursary, but benefits greatly from the cheap rent and no extra utility bills or council tax. There are also subsidised activities and often events with free food. There's 24/7 security. It's very good value compared to other universities.

She got there via a free education, courtesy of British tax payers. They can't pay for everything. I expect to have to pay for her upkeep. There's too much entitlement from students who think their college should give them some of their money.

The bursaries should only be for real poor people

dd just misses out on getting more than the min loan. But we are able to top up to the same as the max loan. Her sport and hobbies don't cost much and she's managed to get a decently paid job or placement each summer. So she has managed to build some savings. I think she will be glad of those if she goes down the PhD route.

In terms of unis - I went to an ex-poly. It was perfect for the career I was interested in and I walked into a brilliant role. Courses for Horses

DS got his first year results. He is happy with how he has done, and the marks help to confirm decisions about what to study next year.

Lovely ironoaks. I remember DD's relief after getting first year results. Good luck to your DS in his choosing of next courses.

The end of year exams came out as
Maths > Physics > Chemistry > Materials,
although there wasn't much in it (the first three were each one % point apart).

He has now submitted his choices for next year:
Physics A, Physics B, Mathematics.
These play to his strengths as well as his interests.

His DoS (an organic chemist) tried to persuade DS to continue with Chemistry, but DS is less enthused by the idea of taking it further. No f2f Chemistry practicals hasn't helped.

He is glad he had the opportunity to study it for an extra year though, and has enjoyed Materials.

Chemistry practicals were what put me off organic chemistry!

Well done to him, ironoaks.

I should really exit at this point as DD is now graduated and home - exhausted after fitting a years worth of socialising into a month, it seems.

Well done to your DS Ironoaks.

DS1 (C) had his end of first year exam results yesterday and is really, really pleased. I'm so proud of him.

Waiting now for DS2's (O) results....

A good end to what started as a difficult year - that must be a relief as well as a source of pride!

@mutterphore and @ironoaks, that's great news! Congratulations to you and your DC.

mutterphore my DD has been offered some supervision work next year. Having read your DS1's experiences, I have asked her how often she expects to be marking work and feeding back to students. She says that students are expected to hand work in one week and go over it a few days later. Admittedly it's not essays which I expect take a lot longer to mark. I'm so relieved that the lack of prompt marking does not seem to have affected your DS's grades.

I'd guess the marking and feedback cycle generally has to be quicker in stem subjects because you often need to be sure you've understood and absorbed the first bit properly before you can do the next part which depends on it.

Great news mutterphore

And Errol, brilliant finally graduated! Hope next steps are enjoyable for her.

Congratulations to everyone graduating or with other exam success. DD has passed her prelims without anyone being aware that she had Covid whilst she sat them, as her mitigating circumstances statement got lost in the ether during submission & is still described as "pending." One day her luck is going to run out.

@Hoghgyni - well done to her for passing everything despite being unwell.