Is FM a "must" for Oxbridge scientific degrees?

[XpressoMartini]

My daughter is currently in Y10. She loves science (all 3 subjects) and that's what she wants to study at university. She used to prefer physics but now she's realised she enjoys all 3 subjects.

Here is the "problem". She needs to chose 4 subjects as part as an application for a selective 6th form. In an ideal world she would like to take Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology. However, we don't know if not choosing Further Maths will compromise her chances of being accepted at Oxford or Cambridge (she's dead set on Oxbridge...).
We checked the courses requirements and Oxford doesn't seem to have FM as a "must have" but Cambridge does mention it as a plus.
If she takes FM, it means she has to drop a science subject but she doesn't know which one as she's potentially interested in several very different courses (physics, biochemistry, material science, natural sciences...). Basically all she knows is that she doesn't want to study medicine.

She does equally well in all subjects and is predicted 9s across the board so it doesn't help our decision.

We are not from this country so are not familiar at all with the system. I want to avoid missing some nuances, i.e. when universities say a subject is "recommended" or "helpful" in reality it means it's a "must". She's so motivated and hard working, I don't want to let her down as I see so many parents around us having themselves studied at Oxbridge and knowing the system inside out. We don't want to seek some advice from her school at this stage as we don't want to tell them now she is considering leaving after GCSEs.

As an aside she's also very keen to do some extra courses during the holidays to broaden her knowledge and help her decide what she wants to study. We did look at a few options but she was too young. If you have any recommendations of courses that can be done remotely (or not , for next year), I'd be very grateful. Again she told me many of her friends are doing some work experience this summer (organised by their parents) and I fear we're letting her down

Thank you

@XpressoMartini , not all schools in the U.K. offer FM as a subject which is why it's not listed as a "must have". You need to choose subjects she is keen to talk about at the application stage for the 6th form she is applying too.

Does she know what degree subject she might be leaning towards? If it is Physics or Natural Science then Further Maths is definitely recommended. For Engineering or Maths it is a 'must have' if the school offer it. From what I understand, if a school offers it and it is recommended for a course then there is a slight disadvantage to not doing it. If the school don't offer it then the universities would not expect it.
My nephew studied Natural Science at Durham without FM and he had 'catch up' Maths classes for the first 6 months. DS is a Maths student at Oxford and he says all the Maths students have FM or an equivalent as do the majority of Physics and Computer Science.
I imagine it's less important for courses like Chemistry, Biochem or Biological sciences

BTW the Oxford website is very clear and each subject page has detailed information about requirements. Not so sure about Cambridge as DS focussed everything on Oxford/Imperial

As a very rough rule of thumb, if FM is listed as recommended or a plus, that generally means you need it if your school offers it.

There are some Oxbridge science degrees that don't require maths, let alone FM eg biology, biochemistry, medicine.

Off the top of my head, apart from a degree in biology, I don't think you need biology A-level for any other degree. You don't need it for medicine, biochemistry or biomedical science, although it is helpful.

My son was in a similar position when choosing A-levels, and decided to keep the Further Maths and drop Biology. His reasoning was that it's possible to take the Biology courses in the first year of the Cambridge Natural Sciences tripos without Biology A-level, but you need as much Maths as possible in order to access the content of the Physics and Materials Science courses.

Physical natural sciences at Cambridge:
My son in his first year, taking Mathematics B, Physics, Materials Science and Chemistry. For the first three of those modules, there is no such thing as too much maths preparation. He took Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry at A-level. Further Maths is definitely preferred by most colleges, although if there's a good reason for not taking it (e.g. the school doesn't offer it) then they would take that into consideration. Most people who get an offer with have F.Maths; the rest will have taught themselves at least some of the F.Maths course independently. His offer was A A A, the only subject where the college specified A* was F.Maths. He also taught himself a fifth Further Maths module over the summer before starting university.

Biological natural sciences at Cambridge:
The obvious A-levels to take would be Maths, Biology, Chemistry. I don't think Further Maths would be needed. Biology A-level is preferred for some modules, but not actually essential for most. Chemistry is essential for some.

As an aside she's also very keen to do some extra courses during the holidays to broaden her knowledge and help her decide what she wants to study.

If she is interested in physical natural sciences then I'd recommend Isaac Physics. This is a free website offering physics, maths and chemistry problems for GCSE level and up. Through Isaac Physics, my son joined an online mentoring scheme, and in Y12 entered the Senior Physics Challenge. He did well in the SPC (top 50 in the UK) and was invited to a residential summer school at Cambridge at the end of Y12. The problem-solving skills he learned through Isaac Physics were useful preparation for both the NSAA
(admissions test) and interview.

He also took part in a year-long research project through the Institute of Research in Schools; he spent a couple of lunchbreaks each week analysing data from a space telescope, then did a poster presentation at a science fair.

@Skatingpark97 @HuaShan @chesirecat99 You’ve been so incredibly helpful! Thanks to you I’ve just learnt that not all schools offer FM, if you school offers it and it is recommended you should really take it (which makes complete sense!) and Biology is not essential for many science courses. That’s exactly the sort of information I was expecting to get from this thread.

DD is also looking at Imperial and Durham so we will have a look at their requirements too.

Thanks again

@Ironoaks I’ll ask her if she’s heard about it - it sounds spot on! She actually told
me that one of her school friends took part in a Science challenge this year (which was organised outside school by her parents I guess) and she wanted to investigate how to take part in these things. Thanks!!

Friend's DS graduated in Biochem from Oxford in 2019. He had A level maths, physics, chemistry & biology, no FM.

I did a science degree at Oxford and not every I did it with had a maths A level, let alone FM.
If they didn't have a maths a level they just had to do some extra classes.

Certainly 30-ish years ago, physics-based NatSci was bloody hard work without Further Maths, and I suspect it still is. On the other hand, biology-based NatSci would be tricky without biology A-level. Several Cambridge colleges insist on chemistry, but at least one (Pembroke) wants biology, even though the course is the same.

She needs to start making choices, I'm afraid.

As for your last comment @Lancelottie, I have been thinking the same lately. She’s been very focused on her studies and extension projects because she enjoys it and wants to do well but she’s not really thinking about the opportunities learning science can bring to her career wise (I know she doesn’t want to be an academic). I think she needs to mature on that front so that she makes the right decisions at the right time and avoids disappointment.

@Ironoaks my DD at C did those A levels and options in her first year. FM was definitely very useful.

To the OP, there are courses offered by different colleges for students at Cambridge. DD's did one in Feb/March I think for year 10 girls looking to go into science; she helped out as she was back during that term. Keep an eye on Cambridge's website. In terms of whether to choose Oxford or Cambridge, there was a thread here a week or so ago. I think for scientists, Oxford is better for studying one science eg Physics, but for a broader base, the Nat Sci course at Cambridge is brilliant. My own DD thought she wanted to study Chemistry when at school but wasn't sure. Her 3rd & 4th years have been spent specialising in Materials Science and she has been offered a PhD by that department subject to her grades this year.

The best thing you can do is pick a couple of Oxford Colleges and a couple of Cambridge Colleges and get her to send them an email along the lines of:-

Hi, I’m currently in Y10 and interested in Nat Sci for 2024 admission. I love all the sciences. Would you recommend taking three sciences at A level plus maths or two sciences plus maths and further maths? Does this advice change depending on which science I wish to specialise in?

And see what they say.

I suspect the advice will be - if you like physics best - take further maths, if you like biology best - take the sciences. But I might be wrong. (I’m a mathematician so I think everyone should take double maths just for the sheer loveliness of it!)

@Malbecfan Funny you say that regarding the difference between science at Oxford or Cambridge. When looking at the courses on both websites, that’s exactly the feeling I had and I really liked the sound of Natural Science at Cambridge given her broader interests. However, I have heard Cambridge is even more difficult than Oxford for private school applicants so I was also wondering if we should rule out Cambridge if it’s a lost battle?

DD is at Oxford reading Chemistry. She does not have FM. Her school only offered 3 A levels and so she did not do physics either. She did look at NatSci at Cambridge, but felt that without Physics she wouldn’t get as much out of it.

@Mumoftwoinprimary That’s a good idea! However when I see the word “college” my heart sinks as that’s another layer of complexity and I’m a complete stranger to the concept. I don’t even know where to start!

DD is (like Malbecfan’s DD) in 4th year phys NatSci and has also done material science. (They must know each other!). She was similar to your DD OP and wanted to keep her options open. She did maths chemistry and physics for a level. She was at an independent school and was able to take biology for the first year and then drop it when she decided that phys was the way for her. FM was available but she didn’t take it although she did attend the classes without taking the exam. I think she would agree that you can never have too much maths at Cambridge but she has been fine without it and was offered a place. So I would say go with FM and if she likes the NatSci course at Cambridge, don’t get hung up on the private school thing.

@XpressoMartini the colleges are nothing to be feared. DD didn't even apply to hers, although after 4 years she absolutely loves it and they have accepted her in principle if her exam marks are good enough to progress.

They live in their college but lectures and labs are held in departments. Supervisions (tutorials) are often held in their college but DD has had lots in other colleges over the years. Your personal tutor and Director of Studies is based in your college.

We had a day in Cambridge and walked round peeking into colleges and picking up prospectuses. DD went on a course and decided to apply to that college & was interviewed there. However, her offer came from a different college, one we hadn't visited & she hadn't considered. You can make an open application where you don't specify a college. Some people play a strategic game where they look at the number of students particular colleges accept for their subject. To be honest, the vast majority of people love where they end up, even if it wasn't the place they applied to, so please don't stress about it.

Sorry, appalling grammar there. I should have said the tutor and DoS ARE based there. Time for bed after a stressful teaching day...

If your daughter wants to do a degree that has biology in it, even if it isn't essential to have biology A level I would advise that she does biology at A level. DD is studying biomedical sciences, and took chemistry and biology at A level. There is a lot of biology, and a lot of chemistry in her course, and she would most definitely have been disadvantaged without both subjects.

The tutors and lecturers will assume quite a lot of prior knowledge.

With a DC studying one of the courses where posters say FM is less relevant, her view is that FM has been so helpful and others who did IB or didn’t have FM have had to do extra classes to catch up. On a course which is full on, this is extra pressure she wouldn’t have wanted to have. If my DC did those A levels I would be recommending a route more towards biology rather then physics, chemistry, engineering, matsci or natural sciences. So doing these choices probably narrows options or at least makes some more difficult.

@Malbecfan I would also say not every student is happy with the college where they land. My DD was pooled to another college from her first choice and whilst she has made friends and got on with her degree, it hasn’t really been ideal for her. There are many other colleges she would have preferred.

@Dancingdreamer that's such a shame. The students I have known from school who have been pooled (well into double figures) seem to be quite happy where they have ended up. One went last autumn and due to the shambles that was A levels, her chosen college was full. She has ended up elsewhere but was really enjoying herself. She is in the same department so it's just the college that has changed. 2 of DD's school friends ended up pooled, one to an all-girls college. She has now graduated but had a fantastic experience and would recommend her college.

@Malbecfan She is at Oxford so no all girls colleges but her college has a particularly distinct culture which she feels quite ostracised from. Most of her friends are from her course which thankfully takes up most of her time. And since lockdown, she has worked from home when possible.