Is FM a "must" for Oxbridge scientific degrees?

[XpressoMartini]

My daughter is currently in Y10. She loves science (all 3 subjects) and that's what she wants to study at university. She used to prefer physics but now she's realised she enjoys all 3 subjects.

Here is the "problem". She needs to chose 4 subjects as part as an application for a selective 6th form. In an ideal world she would like to take Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology. However, we don't know if not choosing Further Maths will compromise her chances of being accepted at Oxford or Cambridge (she's dead set on Oxbridge...).
We checked the courses requirements and Oxford doesn't seem to have FM as a "must have" but Cambridge does mention it as a plus.
If she takes FM, it means she has to drop a science subject but she doesn't know which one as she's potentially interested in several very different courses (physics, biochemistry, material science, natural sciences...). Basically all she knows is that she doesn't want to study medicine.

She does equally well in all subjects and is predicted 9s across the board so it doesn't help our decision.

We are not from this country so are not familiar at all with the system. I want to avoid missing some nuances, i.e. when universities say a subject is "recommended" or "helpful" in reality it means it's a "must". She's so motivated and hard working, I don't want to let her down as I see so many parents around us having themselves studied at Oxbridge and knowing the system inside out. We don't want to seek some advice from her school at this stage as we don't want to tell them now she is considering leaving after GCSEs.

As an aside she's also very keen to do some extra courses during the holidays to broaden her knowledge and help her decide what she wants to study. We did look at a few options but she was too young. If you have any recommendations of courses that can be done remotely (or not , for next year), I'd be very grateful. Again she told me many of her friends are doing some work experience this summer (organised by their parents) and I fear we're letting her down

Thank you

A lot of applicants will have looked, like you have, ahead of time and seen what they need for the course which can be different depending on the colleges if going down the Oxbridge route.

Can't speak for Cambridge, but these days what they need for Oxford will not vary by College. There is a Common Framework.

@chopc

Yep *@Dancingdreamer* ...... am aware of this. Hopefully by the time he comes to apply he will have a good idea of his capabilities.

One thing I didn't understand in your post - if the content covered is not the same as FM then how can a level 6/7 be considered to be in the same territory?

As I understand it (and I don’t claim to be an expert in this area) with IB you either do a form of pure maths (analysis and approaches) or applied maths (applications and interpretations). As you can only do one, the syllabus covered is narrower but at HL you go to a more advanced level in that particular area of maths and beyond what you would do in A level maths so that it is more like further maths. However, in both courses the mechanics which is offered as part of A level maths is absent from IB.

Thanks @Dancingdreamer - will look into it further when the time comes

In the end it's best to do what you enjoy, and look at the unis to see which you like.

Sometimes the best one on paper is not the one where you will feel comfy and thrive.

I used to work in the physics Dept at Oxford. They said that Physics students who hadn't done FM would struggle. I don't think all unis say that but Oxford definitely did.

@irregularegular

A lot of applicants will have looked, like you have, ahead of time and seen what they need for the course which can be different depending on the colleges if going down the Oxbridge route.

Can't speak for Cambridge, but these days what they need for Oxford will not vary by College. There is a Common Framework.

There can be some differences in detail between Cambridge colleges. The information will be either on the course or individual college websites.

Fictional yes that was true when I was young.

It was ages ago though!

just came across this thread regarding further maths - I would 100% recommend taking this subject if you can if anyone thinking of applying to Cambridge for the Physical Natural Science tripos - although most colleges state it as recommended, if you look at the acceptance rate almost all applicants have FM - my daughter is fantastic at maths, physics & chemistry always getting 90+ in all exams, her personal statement was great demonstrating loads of extra curriculum activity related to STEM, winning some international and national competitions in this field also getting a physics article she wrote published. She didn't study further maths which we believe was the reason she was pooled and not chosen to study at Cambridge she is in the August adjustment but again I think she will probably face the same dilemma - not too fussed though as she has an offer from another amazing uni arguably better - she does regret not taking further maths though as it is such a major part of physics

Hello, OP -

Former STEM admissions tutor here. In my subject my School is in the somewhat bunched group just below O, C, Warwick and Imperial.

Firstly, I agree with PPs who say that it will be very helpful if your DD can choose between the Bio-based and the Physics based pathways. Much of what looks difficult or confusing will resolve naturally when she does. (FYI Biophysics and bioengineering are physics based pathways.)

Although @irregularegular is correct about the content of the O entrance exam, continued exposure and practice with maths undoubtedly sharpens the skill set. And if STEP is required for C that is another story entirely. My experience is very much with the PPs who believe that encouraging but not requiring FM is mainly an out for applicants who do not have reasonable access to it. I have also seen many, many examples of able students like the PPs who suffered crises of confidence when the FM ‘review’ at uni whizzed by in a blur. In short, for a Physics based pathway at O or C, in practical terms FM is really all but essential. For a Bio based pathway, I would not think it necessary but I would much rather you query the relevant admissions tutors directly. @Mumoftwoinprimary , I think it was, suggested a lovely letter.

Without knowing your DD at all, I also wonder to what extent she has got her heart set on Oxbridge. She sounds wonderful, and I hope it works out for her. But the large majority with this dream don’t make it, and many of them come to places like mine age 18-19 already feeling like failures. The more able and intelligent they are, the sadder it is. I always want pupils to know that for each of them there are probably ten unis in the U.K. that would be a good fit. The trick is to find just one of them, and to stay resilient.

@poetryandwine this thread is a year old...

I don't mind actually, I found Poetry's post useful to the reading up I've been doing on FMs in advance of my eldest starting 6th form next year. He was put off choosing FM as it was made to sound very hard - but he got a 9 in his mocks for his maths GCSE, so I'm wondering if he's let himself be intimidated from taking a course he really ought to. (He wants to study engineering - probably mechanical, but not entirely settled yet.)

DD is about to graduate from a STEM subject (Oxford). She didn't do FM/Maths at A level, taking Eng Lit A alongside three science A Levels. DD concedes that A Level Maths would have made life easier but it hasn't hindered her either. She has A star Maths and FM GCSE and has taught herself the extra stuff she needed as she went along. She was questioned about her choice of Eng Lit A Level in her Oxford interviews but it obviously wasn't an issue. I must add though that she was told at an open day that her chances of getting in without A Level Maths were not good.

For students who are good at maths and want to do engineering, they may well find maths/fm/physics easier than maths/physics and any other third subject.

And if they don't do that hard maths for A level, they're likely to have to catch up at least some of it in their first year at uni while doing a lot of other difficult content.

My DD is an engineer who did did maths/fm/physics plus an EPQ and comp sci AS in the last year before the reforms... I don't think she found it too onerous, and taught herself an extra mechanics module. She's 'good at maths' but not a real mathmo type.

DS does a science subject without FM. They were concerned that some of the statistical work would be an issue for him and they were right. But he caught up.

@ofteninaspin I am delighted that it all worked out for your DD. But I think she sounds exceptional, even by Oxford standards. I suspect her interviewer gleaned something of this.