Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

How much is a PhD ?

65 replies

DinosaurDiana · 06/04/2021 20:04

My DD has announced that she will be doing a PhD.
We will have paid her accommodation for four years, and don’t want to anymore.
Can I ask how the course is funded and how she will pay accommodation/food ?

OP posts:
DinosaurDiana · 07/04/2021 11:15

@SarahAndQuack

What does she want the PhD for? Does she have a career in mind where it'd be helpful, or is she just interested and wanting to spend some more time studying?

If she has even a glimmer of a thought she wants to get into academia, she needs the funding not just financially, but also because it's quite a significant CV boost.

I believe she wants to lecture at a Uni.
OP posts:
GCAcademic · 07/04/2021 11:22

I believe she wants to lecture at a Uni.

What subject? The odds of a lectureship are slim to none in many subjects, no matter how good you are. A few years ago, it used to be the case that 1 in 20 PhD students that would end up in a permanent academic job. The job market has got even worse since then.

Chemenger · 07/04/2021 11:28

What subject? The answer to this will let people answer sensibly. The PhD students in my department are mostly on stipends that allow them to be self supporting with the addition of some tutoring and demonstrating to undergrads. This may not be true in the humanities.

Doveyouknow · 07/04/2021 11:30

I think the subject matters here in terms of funding. If it's science then she should be able to secure funding. If it's an arts subject funding is generally more difficult to secure. However I can't believe she assumed you would fund it for her Shock

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 11:32

If she wants a lectureship (which is your entry-level permanent job), she definitely needs to secure funding if she possibly can, for her CV. This is going to be a long post, hope it's useful, skip if not:

She will also need to spend time during her PhD attending conferences (which can be pricey, although in many subjects there's now much better awareness of how they can be done online and more cheaply, given what's happened with Covid). She will need to teach, but she won't have endless time to do it (and it's not the most lucrative).

What subject is she in (apologies if I've missed this)? The following varies a bit by subject, but here's what she's looking at for a lectureship.

  • 4 years of the PhD. In the final year, apply for whatever jobs are going in this field. Some candidates restrict themselves to the UK but many will also look at positions in the US/Europe. Typically, you have to expect to move around the country.
  • post-PhD, a few very lucky, very good people get postdoc temporary contracts to do more research ('postdoc fellowships'). There are enormously more of these in sciences than Arts; typically, you will be working for one or two years on someone else's project. Then move on, and repeat.
  • if you are less lucky or less good, you may cobble together some temporary teaching, then eventually get a postdoc position. For most people, it's a mixture.
  • After a few years, a very tiny number of people who have PhDs then get permanent academic jobs. You then must secure grants in order to bring in funding, and publish publish publish.

I think academia has a lot going for it and obviously, of all the people who want to do PhDs, some do go on and become successful lecturers. So I don't want to sound as if I'm patronising anyone who starts out with this aim. But I don't think there's widespread awareness of how competitive it is. It has got much harder in the last few years and it wasn't easy before.

If you or she is worrying about finance, the reality is that a funded PhD is actually the relatively financially secure part of getting to a lectureship. It's the bit after the PhD (and in the unfunded fourth year) where it gets dicey. I'll do you my history because it's pretty representative. I got my PhD in 2014; I was lucky (and good - sorry, but it matters), and I got a two-year teaching fellowship somewhere prestigious. Then I had a year of temp teaching where I probably earned about 3k in total. Then I was at home with my DD for a year. Then I got a two-year postdoc fellowship somewhere else prestigious, which is now coming to an end. I've interviewed for permanent positions and got to second choice; I've been told I'm eminently hireable. But there aren't a lot of jobs. I'm 36. If I do get a permanent job, the salary will be decent (37k or thereabouts), but it's balanced by a long period of uncertainty and low wages, and it's extremely difficult to do things like getting a mortgage or starting a family.

I've only had to move three times since my PhD; that's quite rare, and it dented my career that I wasn't more willing to up sticks. Mostly, people move a lot.

To add the cherry on the cake, two of my friends who got their permanent jobs recently (both in their mid/late 30s; both took just under ten years from PhD to permanent job, which is quite typical) ...have recently been told they may be made redundant under university cuts. There's a lot of that going around.

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 11:32

@GCAcademic

I believe she wants to lecture at a Uni.

What subject? The odds of a lectureship are slim to none in many subjects, no matter how good you are. A few years ago, it used to be the case that 1 in 20 PhD students that would end up in a permanent academic job. The job market has got even worse since then.

Really?! When was it 1 in 20. That's masses. I can't quite believe that was the case.
SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 11:37

Sorry, I am posting too much, but ... to give an idea of how lectureships are, in my field in the past calendar year, there has been one permanent lectureship for which I was eligible to apply (ie., which was in my subject area or close enough I could make a case).

One.

In 2019, there were two of them.

At the university where I did my PhD, there are well over 20 other people who graduated from PhDs and still do not have academic jobs, since I got my PhD in 2014. That's just the PhDs from one university; most universities across the UK offer this subject.

NerrSnerr · 07/04/2021 11:38

I don’t want to push her into selling her body or drugs to fund it !!, but I equally don’t want to pay anymore

My husband did a PHD, we also have many friends with them. None of them were funded by parents, or the selling of bodies or drugs.

You just need to talk to her. She's a grown up and she can either afford to do a PHD through funding or she can't.

fellrunner85 · 07/04/2021 11:43

@sarahandquack says it all above, OP, but if you take one thing from her post it's this:

After a few years, a very tiny number of people who have PhDs then get permanent academic jobs. You then must secure grants in order to bring in funding, and publish publish publish

The vast majority of my friends have PhDs, finishing them in the last 5-10 years. Only one of those people has an academic job in a university.

The rest have a range of jobs that they could have got 10 years previously, without the phd or even a MA. Their jobs include working in admin; in call centres; in a greengrocers; in marketing for a charity; and as a TA in a school.

PattyPan · 07/04/2021 11:47

My DP is doing a PhD and gets a stipend of a bit over £14k (tax free) plus gets paid for teaching on top of that. He is a scientist but I don’t think any of the PhD candidates in his department are self-funded, they are all on various stipends.

GCAcademic · 07/04/2021 11:55

Really?! When was it 1 in 20. That's masses. I can't quite believe that was the case.

This was around 12 years ago.

Needmoresleep · 07/04/2021 11:57

I obviously know a lot less than real academics but am aware of DS speaking to a lot of post graduates before making any decisions. He chose to go to the US rather than stay in the UK because he understood that international, especially American, experience was important in his field and that it was potentially disadvantageous to stay at the same institution throughout.

He says the days of skipping straight from PhD to a lecturer job in his field are gone, and that he will need to do a couple of post doc positions first. Even then he is seeing strong applicants taking positions in US University campuses in the Gulf etc. Something in either the UK or US is not guaranteed.

Yet he is lucky. Economics is a academic area in high demand, and cheaper to deliver than lab based STEM. There are also a lot of research jobs putside academia in think tanks, governments, consultantancies and banks. He should find employment in his field, but not necessarily at a University. Other subjects will be tougher, and she needs to have thought through what she plans to do next.

All I can say is that DCs academic private school had a surprisingly high proportion of teachers with PhDs.

I would emphasise Sarah's point about the need for mobility. I have a couple of quite determined friends who has made it to Professor by effectively living apart from their families during the week for years. And someone else who has found herself stuck in a fairly junior role in a lower tier University because of her inability to move geographically.

GCAcademic · 07/04/2021 11:57

Also, that's across the board. In certain fields it would have been far less than 1 in 20, even back then.

SherryPalmer · 07/04/2021 11:59

I think it’s important that young academics are not discouraged by job market horror stories. I left academia because I was sure I ywasn’t good enough to get a permanent position only to see my mediocre (male) contemporaries do so with relative ease.

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 12:02

@GCAcademic

Also, that's across the board. In certain fields it would have been far less than 1 in 20, even back then.
I suspect my field may be one of those.
SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 12:04

@SherryPalmer

I think it’s important that young academics are not discouraged by job market horror stories. I left academia because I was sure I ywasn’t good enough to get a permanent position only to see my mediocre (male) contemporaries do so with relative ease.
I agree, but there's 'horror stories' and there's 'this is the situation'. I don't think anyone here is telling horror stories.

It's true, I can think of mediocre men who do just fine, but in all fields, not just academia. But depressingly, the fact that mediocre men get jobs does not prove that more qualified or talented women will too.

EdwardTeach · 07/04/2021 12:05

Some PhD programs are like pyramid schemes. Unless there is demand for PhD graduates of that particular field outside of academia, the "correct" number of PhD students for a professor to supervise over their entire career is approximately one.

ElMacchiato · 07/04/2021 12:40

Its not just academia or bust. I've known a number of people (in science sector) get jobs in the private sector, in biotech companies or pharmaceutical companies or agrochem, food and drink company research depts.
But she needs to think it through, its a lot of work.

Needmoresleep · 07/04/2021 16:09

Sarahandquack's posts are great and seem to line up with what we are hearing. DS was obviously a strong student through his first degree and Masters, but we assume he will need to demonstrate a wider skill set from now on. Sarah mentions conferences and publishing and the ability to attract tesearch money. Our assumption is that skills like creativity, marketing and salesmanship come into play. You go to conferences, you network, you create interesting ideas and, to some extent follow the zeitgeist. (Lots of economists and other social scientists were quick to publish about Covid)

There are clearly young economists who have managed to create a buzz about themselves. DS was offered a RA position with one and interviewed by a few others. They seemed to know each other, indeed DS seems to have done well enough with his first interview that though he did not get that position his application was passed on to others seeking researchers. DS also noted that despite being in the US, his interviewers clearly knew his UK referees on a personal level using their first names.

I am not making it sound attractive, but I assume that a capacity to self promote is useful. And a understanding that you have to seek out opportunities and to grasp them when they arise. That, intelligence, a capacity for hard work, and an ability to plug away for years. (DS' funding is for six years, and lockdown is providing another challenge to the need for stamina.) It is quite a commitment.

moochingtothepub · 07/04/2021 16:14

If she's not able to get a funded PhD she should take research assistant work and reapply next year

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 17:07

@moochingtothepub

If she's not able to get a funded PhD she should take research assistant work and reapply next year
I'm sure that this varies from place to place and subject to subject, but often, research assistants have PhDs already. It's quite competitive to get that work.
KihoBebiluPute · 07/04/2021 18:42

OP hasn't given enough info for further speculation. One of the best paths to getting a PhD is to be the protegé of a professor who is already successful in the relevant field and has secured project funding for a large-scale research activity which will often include modules of PhD-sized work that the professor wishes to actively recruit students for. Their research funding will include money for PhD studentship stipends. In such circumstances the professor will be on the look out for final-year undergrad and Masters students who have shown potential. For all we know, OP's DD may have already been offered just such an opportunity and has just not fully explained it to her parents.

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 19:59

@KihoBebiluPute

OP hasn't given enough info for further speculation. One of the best paths to getting a PhD is to be the protegé of a professor who is already successful in the relevant field and has secured project funding for a large-scale research activity which will often include modules of PhD-sized work that the professor wishes to actively recruit students for. Their research funding will include money for PhD studentship stipends. In such circumstances the professor will be on the look out for final-year undergrad and Masters students who have shown potential. For all we know, OP's DD may have already been offered just such an opportunity and has just not fully explained it to her parents.
Are you thinking of the US? In the UK, professor means a very senior academic, but what you are describing is a situation that would apply to plenty of academics well below the level of prof.

(And IME, it is extremely difficult these days to offer a funded PhD to your favoured student without a public interview process.)

DinosaurDiana · 07/04/2021 20:01

It’s psychology. I just think that she wants to be a permanent student.
She does work in the summer to earn money, I’m hoping we won’t be in lockdown again so that she can get a job.
I just don’t see that many opportunities to lecture in it at Uni, but feel free to correct me.

OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2021 20:07

PhD students don't have the summer off, it's based on the same work week as a full-time job.

I think it's fine to want to be a permanent student. Full disclosure, I did my PhD because I'd applied for a few jobs and for PhD funding and the funding came through but the jobs didn't, and I thought it sounded like a nice way of spending a few years. And it is, if you don't mind not getting paid much.

There are plenty of psych lecturers compared to, ahem, certain subjects. It's just all subjects are competitive. Does she know what she'd do with a psych PhD that's not academia? Might be worth finding out what people do.