Return to university

[SouthCoastShell]

I've just watched all of Boris's announcement and he doesn't mention when students can return to university. Does anyone know when students are allowed to return?

@wooliewoo the argument about age falls down when you talk about 6th forms. I teach 18 year olds in small unventilated classrooms because the government tells me this is safe. Did it last September - December too. Never quite understood why an August 31st baby can't have f2f but Sept 1st can.
From this Sept all adults will be vaccinated so what will be their argument then. That students prefer it ? Not any I've met ! First years now deserve some good quality f2f teaching.

@Newgirls

Hotels, air b and bs are booked out to the max! I havent heard of any saying we aren’t open!!

They are in a for a boom year. I don’t buy the argument that unis are being somehow ‘more responsible’. They are however bowing to union staff pressure to stay online as some staff seem to prefer it.

Saying students have to take the tests seems reasonable surely, especially compared to no face to face. Seems unis are running out of reasons to justify home working.

That's the crux of the matter - staff prefer working at home. Let's hope that Uni's refuse to put up with that nonsense and insist staff return to campus.

They are however bowing to union staff pressure to stay online as some staff seem to prefer it.

Where are you finding this information?

They are however bowing to union staff pressure to stay online as some staff seem to prefer it.

Really? How do you know this? Do you work at a university?

@wooliewoo

Universities have been treated differently to schools because the students are adults therefore more at risk of contracting/spreading Covid. We were continually told schools were "safe"! Come the autumn term the tables will have turned though. Surely universities full of vaccinated adults will be safer than schools full of unvaccinated children?

To what extent are university students aged 18 any different regarding being an adult to a sixth former aged 18?

Sixth forms and sixth form colleges have been treated the same as schools. Those students are aged 16-18y, so very similar to students, especially first year students.

Surely if it's safe for 18y sixth formers to sit shoulder to shoulder in classrooms with 20-30 others, without SDing in most cases albeit wearing masks now (nit not previously) , it's fine for 18y students to sit in a university room with SDing and masks too?

Yes, some students are older but the majority of students are probably still early 20s and not in over 50s risk group.

Maybe large lecture theatres aren't okay just yet but seminars and trials of smaller groups.

I can understand the community issue. If you look at the Cambridge stats for example-yes the testing was good but there were over 700 cases in a 6 week period October through to November, this year there has been 12 in the same period. Yet this wave was bigger than the first. So not allowing all students back was the right decision. To allow all students back now will be going from the same base as last October so feasibly the same could happen because this is an age group that have not been vaccinated. I would have thought it would have made sense to vaccinate students sooner rather than later because out of any unvaccinated category of people they are probably the ones that could spread the disease far and wide including variants if international students are returning (which they are). Whilst a large number of the population are vaccinated most of the working public out and about are not. I dont think it matters what the government state about students returning for the majority of universities because students will probably return this term if there are no controls to prevent them, so sadly it maybe just the likes of Oxbridge and Scottish University students who are largely affected.

I feel for students, it is unfair to have treated them so badly and I truly hope that some normality returns.

@DelBocaVista

They are however bowing to union staff pressure to stay online as some staff seem to prefer it.

Really? How do you know this? Do you work at a university?

They are however bowing to union staff pressure to stay online as some staff seem to prefer it.

Really? I’d be amazed if this was true. Certainly I’ve heard or seen nothing from the union about this. Secondly all the teaching staff I know are keen to get back on campus, .

The push to remain at home (for now) is coming from more senior university management. I’m sure they have their reasons. Last I heard they said they were waiting for direction from the govt which was expected over Easter.

I suppose one fear from the universities is if there is an outbreak at uni which rips through the teaching staff you may suddenly not have anyone available to do the teaching for a few weeks, even online. Students would be up in arms then for sure.

Really? I’d be amazed if this was true. Certainly I’ve heard or seen nothing from the union about this. Secondly all the teaching staff I know are keen to get back on campus,.

The push to remain at home (for now) is coming from more senior university management. I’m sure they have their reasons. Last I heard they said they were waiting for direction from the govt which was expected over Easter.

Exactly my experience. I'm a university academic and I'm desperate to get back to campus - as are my colleagues.

Maybe large lecture theatres aren't okay just yet but seminars and trials of smaller groups.

That is what we are doing next term but it will only work because demand for room space is lower in term 3. Until the requirement for social distancing is dropped, I can't see universities getting back to pre-covid normal. There just isn't enough space.

DDs lectures are really keen to get back to f2f - one is planning field trips and nights out in the pub for next year . Several have said how hard it's been, trying to teach first years who they don't know and can't see (student cameras are all off in lectures). And DD has been one of the lucky ones, as all her lectures have been live. One module is open to other disciplines, and loads of the humanities students who take it are really really excited about being able to ask questions and get them answered in real time, as all their other lectures are pre-recorded.

I don't know a single lecturer who would prefer to keep teaching online if there were no pandemic-related concerns. It is a very much worse experience for lecturers, it is more work, the technology is infuriating and it is exhausting and depressing trying to engage with a wall of silent blank screens.

Under a normal academic contract in normal times, actually delivering face-to-face teaching takes up relatively little of a lecturer's time.

@changi

Maybe large lecture theatres aren't okay just yet but seminars and trials of smaller groups.

That is what we are doing next term but it will only work because demand for room space is lower in term 3. Until the requirement for social distancing is dropped, I can't see universities getting back to pre-covid normal. There just isn't enough space.

So maybe as they are education they need to drop the need for 2m SDing and rely on masks, hand washing and sanitisers, twice weekly LFTs for all and ventilation like schools and sixth form colleges? As they are adults choosing to be at university maybe make the testing compulsory for attendance.

It's hard because students are not currently getting what they've paid for, many have hardly met the people in their course as even in September the provision was online more than it was f2f. First year students have not really had a student life experience at all.

The government should have been upfront too last summer and said it was going to be almost all online, even in term 1. Then students and their parents could have made better decisions as to whether to fork out thousands of pounds in rent. I know this would probably have only helped first years as many 2/3 year would have already sorted them.

This is a quote from a BBC article last week which suggests at least one if the unions is opposing a return.

But the UCU lecturers' union has rejected calls for a campus return this month - saying it "smacks of self-interest and risks the safety of staff, students and the wider public".
Jo Grady, the union's general secretary, said "vice-chancellors lured students to university with the promise of a relatively normal campus experience, only for them to be left facing long periods in lockdown.
"Universities should not now be asking hundreds of thousands of students to return for in-person teaching after Easter when most courses will only have revision classes and exams left," said Dr Grady.

The government is only responsible for the social distancing guidelines. Except when they have explicitly forbidden face-to-face teaching, they have no control over whether a university teaches online or face-to-face as long as they keep within the guidelines. So it is not for them to announce whether most teaching will be online or not.

Whenever it has been allowed, our students have received two thirds of their teaching hours face-to-face. The cost to our staff and the university of doing this has been enormous, but very few people would want it to have been done differently.

It varies so much university to university.I know plenty of students at Glasgow, including science and computing students, who have never had any in person teaching all year! And yet in a normal year these courses have practical labs every week 🤷🏼‍♀️

This is a quote from a BBC article last week which suggests at least one if the unions is opposing a return.

But it is not opposing a return because staff prefer to work at home.

I'm very glad to hear Uni staff are keen to get back and the union stuff is just rubbish. Next term needs to be back as usual - schools are ??? No distancing just masks and testing. I teach adults on school.
My DD has managed but has had enough now if paying for something she's not getting. Our year 13s are talking about not going this year if it's on line again - there will be some empty Uni courses if they follow this through.
How can my DDs go to the pub, go on holiday, go shopping but not go to a lecture ?

I suspect the social distancing is the main issue. Schools are exempt but I don’t believe universities are.

So I can teach my small cohort of 40 students still (and have been doing face to face for some sessions). Rather than been in a 40 person classroom we’ve been in a small 100 person lecture theatre.

But we’re one of the few courses still doing face to face. So there’s the room availability to do that. Some sessions with lab type work I’ve had to double my teaching sessions and do half the cohort in the morning, half in the afternoon. Again that’s ok from a room availability when there’s limited courses back. Obviously not great for me as it doubles my work.

But practically all courses can’t return until social distancing is dropped.

Our year 13s are talking about not going this year if it's on line again - there will be some empty Uni courses if they follow this through.

There is only a fixed number of university places. Are they are happy to compete for them with next year's year 13s?

Though I’ve already had an email saying to be prepared to teach until 8pm next academic year. 😩. So extending the working day to try and accommodate as much as possible.

There won’t be empty uni courses. People said this last year. I’m sure some people took a year out but courses are full. There’s always plenty of demand.

Though I’ve already had an email saying to be prepared to teach until 8pm next academic year. 😩. So extending the working day to try and accommodate as much as possible.

Yes, we have had 9 to 9 and weekends mentioned as possibility. Nothing firm though.

We can't teach entirely f2f and maintain social distancing - there just isn't the room space. (Our core lectures have about 400 students. The largest lecture theatre, with social distancing, allows about 80-100 students in. So that means we'd have to quadruple our workload and the largest rooms are booked solidly 9-5 in normal times, so if many courses need 4x that, it becoms impracticable even teaching 8am-8pm. I can't imagine students would be wild to have a lecture 6-8pm either; there is normally obviously reduced attendance at ones that start at 9am...)

We have a few staff desperate to get back to face to face who've requested ALL their stuff is face to face next year as they hate online... and a couple who I think will need to be crowbarred out of their houses into the office (and it's the ones with the really crappy internet connections who are techno muppets desperate to stay at home!)

All I want is some transparency from uni about what the split is going to be and that I'm not going to be expected to log on from home, then on campus an hour later for live stuff, and not kept in the dark until it's too late to suspend the year easily - like happened this year. And an end to Blackboard Collaborate - preferably with fire, spikes and doom.