Widening Participation/Contextual Admissions

[SometimesRavenSometimesParrot]

Hi all. I’ve seen quite a lot of posts lately where people seem a bit confused about different widening participation initiatives and contextual admissions, either how they work, why they work or why they’re even done... and some people asking questions about them and not getting anything resembling an accurate response.

I’ve worked in a WP team for seven years now (with a couple of short stints in admissions), so since I have often had excellent advice from Mumsnet and my questions answered, I thought I’d offer myself up to answer anything in this area someone might want to know.

I be name changed so I can be a bit more honest and I know there are several other posters who work or research in this area who might want to chip in!

Standard disclaimer of every uni works slightly different, so answers will be broad ranging - feel free to PM me if you’ve got a specific q!

I think the Bristol scheme did not stop anyone applying. It has always been popular with independent schools and remains so. Partly because it is handy for London, the home counties and the SW where there are loads of independent schools and students who can easily access Bristol from home.

This is a fantastic outreach project run by Bristol. If you are successful getting onto it, it guarantees a contextual offer (or an interview for medicine).

www.bristol.ac.uk/study/outreach/post-16/insight/

I do think subjects like medicine and engineering very much allowed working class dc to do well. They are no longer working class though. My feeling is that the traditional working class has changed. No mines. No shipbuilding. No enormous docks or huge mills, or steelworks. The landscape of employment has changed and many dc escaped from working class routes.

I’m not sure comprehensive schools have helped everywhere. Some have always been poor and continue to be so. Some hardly see a very bright child. Resources are often stretched to help Sen who have learning difficulties right up to the very bright. Not all succeed.

I note Bucks, a grammar county, has a very high proportion going to university. Plenty from the secondary moderns. So ambition and a decent school can work well.

@mids2019 I wouldn’t expect so. Schools can boycott all they like but it’s students that make the decisions. Added to which, universities (especially higher tariff ones like Bristol) can fill their places twice over with fantastically qualified students without even looking at private school students, so a boycott wouldn’t even be particularly effective.

That said I was not working in the sector in 2003 (I was in school benefitting from WP work...) so I can’t tell you 100% how the sector felt about it.

I remember the boycott years. My daughter still did apply for Bristol but we knew the chances of getting in were much lower because I have worked like a dog full time even when she was 3 weeks old, to pay school fees whilst some other mothers live in luxury, kept by men and use state schools so it is not really a level playing field. However Bristol did not reject so many it became pointless to apply. If we do move to that for any university then obviously if bright children are rejected from some universities because they have full scholarships to private schools or no scholarships but go there then wise schools will suggest they apply where the bright have equal chances or at least there is a fair chance of getting in. no point wasting one of your 5 places if a university were to reject vast numbers of qualified private school pupils or grammar school pupils for that matter.

Although most people who use state schools don't live in luxury 😊

@Xenia

I remember the boycott years. My daughter still did apply for Bristol but we knew the chances of getting in were much lower because I have worked like a dog full time even when she was 3 weeks old, to pay school fees whilst some other mothers live in luxury, kept by men and use state schools so it is not really a level playing field. However Bristol did not reject so many it became pointless to apply. If we do move to that for any university then obviously if bright children are rejected from some universities because they have full scholarships to private schools or no scholarships but go there then wise schools will suggest they apply where the bright have equal chances or at least there is a fair chance of getting in. no point wasting one of your 5 places if a university were to reject vast numbers of qualified private school pupils or grammar school pupils for that matter.

But Xenia, that was your choice to work like a dog to fund private school. Added to which, you were privileged to have the opportunity to do so. And while it might not have entitled your children to contextual offers, it will have given them huge benefits in other ways, that the children I work with couldn’t dream of.

I think this thread has derailed abit so I’ll reiterate I’m happy to answer any questions about WP, either here or by PM.

I also think it’s worth pointing out that the world we live in today is vastly different to the post WWII era I’ve seen mentioned - or even the 70s/80s. Direct comparisons aren’t necessarily useful or appropriate. There were many jobs and opportunities then which are no more, and many jobs and opportunities now which weren’t dreamed of then. Added to which the issues being dealt with where completely different.

And I will reiterate.

Widening access work, and contextual offers, DO NOT MEAN, that children who attend private school, are suddenly higher education pariahs and will not be offered places.

Children who attend private education will continue to get excellent results and progress to excellent universities. The additional support and guidance private schools can offer enable this above all else.

Widening participation work will continue to be heavily based on research and data, to make sure we are as effective as possible. We will continue to adapt as appropriate and evaluate our work to see our impact.

Added to which, the post qualifications admissions approach is likely to come into play soon, which will help with all of these issues.

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot thank you for doing it. As a teacher trying to get kids to apply its people like you who make them believe they are worth it. Most of my lot will be the first in their families to go to Uni so it's a big thing. And v scary.

Schools can boycott all they like but it’s students that make the decisions

Mm... there do seem to be a fair number of people posting on various forums re their / the applicant themselves having to get the approval of the school re where they apply / firm etc. And my impression is, not just from the point of whether the applicant is likely to meet the grades, whether the course they want to apply for is suitable for them personally? The fine line between advice and a form of coercion? Hopefully, not widespread. Certainly, our three DC have applied to university from three different local grammar schools, all choices with our support and no objection from any of the schools, so either it's not something they feel the need to do, or the three have all just managed to make 'acceptable' choices more by luck than judgement.

I agree that the past isn't alwys comparable with the present. I don't agree all private schools are equal however - eg my twins' private school had 100% failure rate for Oxbridge in their year which is worse than the local state schools for example and no one will contextualise the B grade my son got - the best inthe school, won the school prize and it was in his university subject, no one got higher (private school - it is probably a rare state school where no one gets above a B!).

Also some private schools are for children who cannot get into any more academic private school and those children will continue to get poor results commensurate with their abilities except will not be contextualised in most cases.

Anyway I have never been against trying to put exam results into context so I don't think there is wide disagreement on this thread.

On school approval I suggested Oxbridge to my headmistress (no one had ever been there from my private school in the NE) and she said as I was a year young at school I was too young so could not. I expect I could have pushed it but did not.

I have no idea how many applied and were successful for Oxbridge from DT’s school, past and present. None amongst their friendship groups although friends went to the Sorbonne and ETH Zurich.

Could DT’s have been successful with Oxbridge applications - they both had all A*’s at A level - but neither expressed any interest so we’ll never know.

Is WP university or course specific?

What additional support ar university will a WP applicant receive?

Is the contexualisation in any way carried forward so that employers can see the contexualisation as well?

It would be a shame if pupils got into very good universities through contexualisation but employers still used raw A levels as a filter.

@mids2019

Is WP university or course specific?

What additional support ar university will a WP applicant receive?

Is the contexualisation in any way carried forward so that employers can see the contexualisation as well?

It would be a shame if pupils got into very good universities through contexualisation but employers still used raw A levels as a filter.

WP is both university wide and course specific. So there will be general activity promoting HE and then projects which are more course related, generally the most competitive ones or those with additional entry requirements.

Additional support varies uni to uni (because it’s tailored to their students’ needs) but can include: additional bursaries, a mentor, extra careers support, guaranteed job as a student worker with the WP team, extra transition support etc. WP teams are also very aware of the students who’ve entered uni having previously been on a WP programme and might check in with them or offer a point of contact.

Contextualisation isn’t carried forward to employers, because this would be up to the employer to do and we have no control over it unfortunately.

@MarchingFrogs

Schools can boycott all they like but it’s students that make the decisions

Mm... there do seem to be a fair number of people posting on various forums re their / the applicant themselves having to get the approval of the school re where they apply / firm etc. And my impression is, not just from the point of whether the applicant is likely to meet the grades, whether the course they want to apply for is suitable for them personally? The fine line between advice and a form of coercion? Hopefully, not widespread. Certainly, our three DC have applied to university from three different local grammar schools, all choices with our support and no objection from any of the schools, so either it's not something they feel the need to do, or the three have all just managed to make 'acceptable' choices more by luck than judgement.

Students DO NOT, under any circumstances, have to get permission from their schools on their five choices or their firm or insurance. Any school insisting on this is so far out of line I don’t know where to begin, and parents should be complaining if this is the case. The absolute most they should be doing is a conversation (ideally with someone actually qualified) on the students five choices to check they’ve done their research and it’s all in order (as you mention in terms of whether it’s a good course fit and grade match) and an offer of a conversation to discuss offers before students firm and insurance. But neither of these should include the school saying no you can’t put X university down or as your firm.

Contextualisation isn’t carried forward to employers, because this would be up to the employer to do and we have no control over it unfortunately.

Still have to set bloody employment targets though.

To add - ideally schools should be supporting students with their university research during Y12/early Y13 on the ‘is this a good course for you, do you meet entry reqs, would you enjoy it’ so that by the time they’ve got their five choices, there shouldn’t need to be any real discussion because that work and consideration is has already happened, if you see what I mean.

[quote mumsneedwine]@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot thank you for doing it. As a teacher trying to get kids to apply its people like you who make them believe they are worth it. Most of my lot will be the first in their families to go to Uni so it's a big thing. And v scary. [/quote]
Thank you for being a teacher who encourages your students - both uni wise and to engage with teams like mine!

First in family is terrifying, I agree!

@titchy

Contextualisation isn’t carried forward to employers, because this would be up to the employer to do and we have no control over it unfortunately.

Still have to set bloody employment targets though.

The lack of joined up thinking strikes again!

Do students who participate in WP get to share accommodation or otherwise become aware of each other?

I only mention this as I would think that those who benefited from this scheme would maybe have assurance they were not alone (solidarity?)

@mids2019

Do students who participate in WP get to share accommodation or otherwise become aware of each other?

I only mention this as I would think that those who benefited from this scheme would maybe have assurance they were not alone (solidarity?)

No, this wouldn’t be possible due to data protection - and also could encourage tribalism which would be unhelpful.

There are events like freshers for commuter students (who tend to be WP) which go some way to achieving this, and students on supported access schemes like the one linked earlier in the thread obviously know each other, and events are provided for them usually.

Realistically are their financial barrier s to WP. Even with bursaries are
disadvantaged students likely to have the same level of student experience as others?

mid good point but remember a student from a low income family going to a London university living away from home gets about £11k student loan which they never pay back unless they ever earn over £26k whereas someone from a better off family whose parents choose not to give them a penny of help gets £6k. So in plenty of cases the less well off have more money - it is one thing the Labour party was so proud of - that they set up this new loans system where no matter how badly off you are you can go to university.

www.lse.ac.uk/student-life/accommodation/assets/documents/table-of-accommodation-fees-season-b.pdf

Accommodation fees have gone up hugely since I was at LSE. A full maintenance loan doesn’t go very far.

WP students are more likely to choose a local university and this is mainly due to cost.
In many cases loans don't even cover accommodation costs and there is an expected parental contribution which isn't made explicit- Martin Lewis has done some work on this.

This issue also has an huge impact on middle earners who don't necessarily have hundreds of pounds spare every months to top up student loans.