To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

My school friend like most people from my school in the NE did not go university. Her older brother however went to the local polytechnic because he was going to set up a business and/'or work in the family business which was tailoring and he learned the practical skills he needed there.

I think the problem with new universities is that they do some very good stuff such as nursing of various types, occupational therapy, counselling, social work etc where there is a specific vocational demand. However there are academic subjects (maths, english, law) where the new university is in direct competition with older universities and this is where the comparisons come in and it has to be explained that English from Oxford carries more weight than English from Bedforsshire.

If there was appear separation of the University type (using separate league tables) I think that would be a clarification. Both types of institution would have separate but important functions. There are some careers such as radiography where you would have to go to a new university, in fact it would be difficult to get in with an RG degree.

I don't really understand the motivation of expanding the number of universities but I don't think a change of name necessarily change s the content of the degree.

My DB did his local government accountancy exams at what was the local poly (on the old sandwich course scheme-parents could not afford for him to go to Uni). Didn't do him much harm..now Head of Finance for a large council earning over 100k, due to retire in next few years so definitely been a job for life.

The interesting thing is, whilst ex-polys are seen as offering a substandard degree in the more academic subjects particularly (compared to the older unis), the old universities have picked up a lot of the vocational stuff that polys used to specialise in e.g business management with industrial placement yrs, engineering degrees with placement yrs and are now rated higher than the old polytechnics in those subjects. So it looks like the polytechnics gained nothing and lost everything.

That is definitely not true if you look at the success of eg Nottingham Trent, Oxford Brookes, Lincoln now with its medical school. Many offer very specialised medical sector degrees and fashion and design degrees.

Anglia Ruskin, Sunderland, Edge Hill and Lincoln now do medicine. Harper Adams (used to be an agricultural college) has joined with Keele to offer vet med. Maybe this will change the perception of these newer Unis as it will bring some prestige ?

@Piggywaspushed great minds 😊😊

I know teaching isn't the best example mids but I have an English degree from a highly regarded uni and work with several colleagues with degrees form the exact lesser uni you mention! I also work with one with a degree form Cambridge which is not in English. He has to be fair done well for himself but I have done no better in my career than the other graduates...in fact, one of my most beloved colleagues is very clever and capable and has a degree from Beds. She freely admits she wanted to stay at home for uni because of her horse.

@wacamole

I think you have a point. Polys (or ex polys) can offer very good technical degrees often aligned with specific industries.

I think new universities may be guilty of expanding their curricula far too much and you would question the sustainability of it all. Without the research base of the older universities is there the strength and depth of academic teaching staff for instance.

I noted that the more prestigious an institution actually the fewer the courses offered (with Oxbridge the least) and I don't think this is coincidental.

I think having courses like journalism and law being able to be studied virtually any where could lead students (possibly with lower grades) to mistakenly think they can reach the pinnacles of those careers.

Not many broadsheet journalists or QCs come from the new universities so do we need so many of these courses? How many lawyers do we actually need (we are not the US)?

I may be wrong but I don't think there was ever a Luton College.

Not many broadsheet journalists or QCs come from the new universities

But would we not ever want to see that changing? Or are we happy with the Old School Tie stuff?

Can I also give the example of Huddersfield? Definitely very highly regarded for music!

@Piggywaspushed

That is definitely not true if you look at the success of eg Nottingham Trent, Oxford Brookes, Lincoln now with its medical school. Many offer very specialised medical sector degrees and fashion and design degrees.

The addition of the medical schools is very recent though plus Medicine is one of those careers where demand outweighs supply. I'm thinking more of the mainstream type subjects. Also, 3 ex polys out of ? finally starting to get more recognition is hardly a roaring success of the name change.

NTU was University of the year a few years ago. If you want to do fashion you go there. It's architecture course is v well regarded too.

@Piggywaspushed Definitely was a 'Luton College of Higher Education', I was there.

Years ago though and pretty sure it didn't do an LLB. There was a very lengthy journey via De Montfort to Beds Uni.

Even when there were polys there were good and less good polys. NTU comes out of having been Trent Poly which was always popular. UWE , OBU , Leeds Beckett, Middlesex , Sheffield Hallam all pretty high standing polys back in the day (and Teesside although that hasn't been so successful perhaps in transition).

There are some 'new' Scottish unis but on the whole this 'snobbery' for want of a better word just isn't so marked. Never had polys as such.

I don't think there is any 'finally' for NTU. It has been successful and popular for years!

Last time of checking, Lincoln was actually reasonably high in league tables for history and English. It also won University of the Year recently.

[quote mids2019]@wacamole

I think you have a point. Polys (or ex polys) can offer very good technical degrees often aligned with specific industries.

I think new universities may be guilty of expanding their curricula far too much and you would question the sustainability of it all. Without the research base of the older universities is there the strength and depth of academic teaching staff for instance.

I noted that the more prestigious an institution actually the fewer the courses offered (with Oxbridge the least) and I don't think this is coincidental.

I think having courses like journalism and law being able to be studied virtually any where could lead students (possibly with lower grades) to mistakenly think they can reach the pinnacles of those careers.

Not many broadsheet journalists or QCs come from the new universities so do we need so many of these courses? How many lawyers do we actually need (we are not the US)?[/quote]
Thinking about a course I have ended up researching quite extensively - architecture - there is genuinely a role for graduates from all the types of institution that offer the course.

There are 'engineering-focused' architecture degrees, from places like Bath.

'History / theory-focused degrees' - e.g. Cambridge.

'Art / concept-based degrees' - the Bartlett would be an example.

'Degrees whose focus is getting people to the point of being qualified architects working in the industry, whether starting at 18 or perhaps after years of working in practice' - many of the 'less academically prestigious institutions offer these, and often have interesting ways in working in cross-disciplinary practical groups, akin to what would happen in the job.

None of these (nor the apprentice route) are necessarily 'lesser', and some produce relatively few graduates who work in architecture practices. Graduates of some may box themselves into a particular type of role through where they have studied. It's a mixed economy, where the 'most prestigious academic institutions' do not necessarily produce the most employable graduates.

@Piggywaspushed

Years ago though and pretty sure it didn't do an LLB. There was a very lengthy journey via De Montfort to Beds Uni.

It did offer LLB Law. I nearly went on it thank goodness i didn’t. Middlesex poly, south bank poly et al also offered LLB Law at the same time (late 80s early 90s).

I remember Oxford poly was much coveted then amongst poly applicants.

I mean I am not claiming Beds Uni is great : it clearly isn't. But it serves its purpose and is actually very good for sport, dance, education and some IT type stuff. And, to be fair, over the years its English degree has been pretty good, relative to some of its other offerings.

It is very good at social inclusion. Marsh Farm boy Stephen Kelman, now an accomplished author, probably couldn't have gone to another university. It also attracts a lot of local students form ethnic minorities and mature students, especially women.

So, it does what it does.

I think medicine where ever its taught is obviously going to be a high tariff degree and it's great to have more doctors (we need them). However whether it was more cost effective to create more medical schools rather than expanding the current ones I don't know. I don't know if there will be an increase in university prestige as medicine is a bit independent from other subjects.

Apologies I wasn't trying to disparage English at Bedforshire as a degree merely pointing out that it may make sense to apportion more weight to the Oxford degree in certain circumstances as the degree is presumably more rigorous.

@Piggywaspushed

Do we want the increase in social mobility to come from more disadvantaged pupils getting into elite unis or from elite professions selecting from a greater range of unis? In future we may have broadsheet journalists and judges from a greater range of unis but that is going to take some time.

The original post was about entry requirements to Oxbridge and I suppose ultimately the question my be so we wish to have elite universities in this country? If we do should there be clearer paths to certain career destinations from these universities? It's an open question.

Would it be the case that Oxbridge (and possibly others) hold into an elite status in terms of research but the teaching and status of degrees becomes more on a par with other unis?

I think currently at the moment when recruiting for my specific discipline it would be good to allow consideration of the extra academic content of Oxbridge degrees in the recruitment process. However this is quite a niche physical science field.

If we can afford the current loans scheme (were most people do not pay the loan back so in a sense it is a gift from tax payers to student) then it can all continue. The issue for employers with high paid jobs with loads of very very good candidates with As at A level and from the best universities is how do you pick people given limited time for that crucial first job. Do you pull names from a hat? Only take firsts? Set lots of tests (many do this but that takes hours of students' time) and have interview after interview to get you the best of the best.

If our population reduced 17m in the UK down to what it was when I was born there may not be so many university applicants per place for the highest paid jobs.

Do we wish

@mumsneedwine

NTU was University of the year a few years ago. If you want to do fashion you go there. It's architecture course is v well regarded too.

Architecture was always a poly subject; Leicester School of Architecture is the oldest architecture school in the country and is part of LDMU. I know lots of architects (DH is one, so is DB) and I didn’t realise until I started hanging around on MN that there was such a stigma around former polys, because having been to one is no hindrance at all to their careers.