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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

999 replies

Wacamole · 01/04/2021 10:13

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 06/04/2021 17:42

YY to all of the above.

quest1on · 06/04/2021 18:08

Hi everyone. Just came in to say my DS was an Cambridge reject this year, but it’s absolutely fine and probably for the best. He was miffed for about 24 hours and then got over it. He had 10x9s and GCSE; all A predictions and an A in EPQ, plus other things (national essay competition winner, published work). The feedback was that he did very well in the interview too (above the average interview score), but there were only 2 places at the college he applied to and one taken up by someone who sat exams last Nov. He was pooled, but not taken out of the pool (but only 20% are in a normal year anyway and this was not a normal year). The boy who was offered a place there did have lower GCSEs (7s and 6s), but DS is not bothered about this because he has been chatting to this boy and he comes from a school where the average grade is a 5, whereas at DS’ school, pretty much everyone gets all 8s and 9s.

It’s common sense that if you are teaching a class in which the bulk are hoping to scrape a pass at 4/5, you will have to teach at that level / pace. Those who achieve 7s from that environment will be largely self-taught.

In terms of standardisation, I think Oxford is a more standardised selection process than Cambridge (where individual colleges seem more at liberty to do their own thing). They say it shouldn’t matter which college you apply to, but they would say that wouldn’t they!

It used to be that the “state school intake stats” at top unis were misleading as they were basically composed of grammar school kids. Now, I hear they are looking at how selective a school is (state or independent) rather than the sector, which I think is much fairer. Some independent schools aren’t particularly academic at all.

DS has many friends who he perceives are more academic than him who have also not got in to Oxbridge this year. All have top grades and all sorts besides. But some have got into even more competitive courses in the U.K. or the US. You never can tell.

Also, Oxbridge courses are quite traditional and so many of the most academic at his school don’t even apply because the courses they want are not in offer - eg, for finance-related courses like actuarial science they might apply to Wharton Business School or LSE. The US system is a whole different kettle of fish and do many exclusively focus on this (eg you have to have founded societies, got certain marks in SATs, be involved in charity work and all kind of hoopla that’s mind boggling).

What I do think is a little unfair is that his current school has a generous bursary scheme going into the sixth form. Many of his friends joined then (free places) and all had achieved 8s/9s at underperforming London schools. Some come from very deprived backgrounds or are fairly recent refugees. Anyway, despite having top grades (in the local newspapers etc) and top A-level predictions and beating the odds in so many ways, they now wish they’d stayed were they were because they probably could have got top predictions anyway and might have got places at top unis / medical courses if their grades had been contextualised. As it is, for medicine, there are some who have no offers at all, despite all 9s and A*s because they measure your grades against the average in your school and these, although very good, would not be scored as exceptional coming from this school. But what more could they have done? Nothing. So they have to be happy with that and know they did their best.

So having been through it with DS, my advice would be to spread the net widely and think of Oxbridge as a punt because top grades guarantee nothing. If applying to Cambridge, go for a college with lots of places for that subject! Also, just see it as one step in the HE pathway because most of them will end up doing at least a Masters anyway and who knows where they’ll be by then. Good luck!

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 18:13

I think the idea of staying local does appeal. It takes a.lot to decide to move miles from home and create new social circles and I actually think the idea of 'not fitting in' should be taken.seriously. I think there is a fear from young people.that they do not wish to be in surrounds where they fee! socially inferior (though this is a misguided notion).

In a lot of cities the ex polys are regarded as the 'local' unis while the older universities are regarded as a bit posh. I guess there has to be continual effort to dispel there myths.

However having said that I think school leavers need to be aware that universities contain people.from.a wide variety of backgrounds and sometimes harmony is not immediately achievable. I think you can get background class tension at some of the older unis.

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 18:37

@quest1on

It goes to show how fine those margins are and I find that aspect interesting.

More children are getting great grades now and therefore there will be more and more people in a position to apply to Oxbridge.

I think given the competition thought has to be given Oxbridge alternatives and it is going to be more of the case that very fine undergraduates will be found elsewhere (whether this means there is 'more' prestige given to other institutions is an interesting question.

The problem in my mind is how non Oxbridge unis calibrate their course difficulty given that there are going to be many students of Oxbridge 'standard' (if we use A levels as an objective measure of ability) in them.

The course has to challenge high academic achievers while catering to those who may have entered through clearing with slightly lower A levels. (I actually think clearing makes HE a bit of a marketplace) and that can be problematic.

It's a shame US universities may be out the price bracket of low income Oxbridge non successful applicants.

I have to say how can 25% levels of foreign students to Oxbridge be justified given the over subscription by home students.A lot of the foreign students are from elite schools and wealthy backgrounds.

shallIswim · 06/04/2021 19:08

@mids2019 I don't think they do calibrate! DS did English at Cambridge and browsed some of his friends' English work at the likes of Exeter and Bristol and found it really didn't compare. Easier to get a First too! Basic differences were studying old English in the original at Cambridge but translation elsewhere.

MarshaBradyo · 06/04/2021 19:20

He had 10x9s and GCSE; all A predictions and an A in EPQ, plus other things (national essay competition winner, published work). The feedback was that he did very well in the interview too (above the average interview score), but there were only 2 places at the college he applied to and one taken up by someone who sat exams last Nov. He was pooled, but not taken out of the pool (but only 20% are in a normal year anyway and this was not a normal year). The boy who was offered a place there did have lower GCSEs (7s and 6s), but DS is not bothered about this because he has been chatting to this boy and he comes from a school where the average grade is a 5, whereas at DS’ school, pretty much everyone gets all 8s and 9s

This is a big difference in marks.

Maybe the interview helped the other child but really seems not to help to be selected for a secondary school in this instance.

In general do students know if the secondary they are at fits criteria for contextualisation?

SeasonFinale · 06/04/2021 19:21

@quest1on The students you refer to would have had their gcse grades contextualised where they sat their gcses not against the new more selective 6th form. So they may not have been better off staying there.

The A level grades would not be contextualised but may have attracted (at Cambridge anyway) a slightly higher than usual offer by virtue of the fact that they were at a (perceived to be ) better sixth form.

quest1on · 06/04/2021 19:33

Well in the same way that you could (rightly) argue that achieving top grades from an underperforming school is more of an achievement than a gaining the same grades at a top independent or grammar, you could also argue that a first from an ex-poly is more of an achievement than a first from a top uni. Look at the differences in expertise, privileged environment, teaching expertise etc etc. Maybe degrees will come to be contextualised too by employers? This will probably be the way things are going to be honest.

Also it’s not the case that all courses at Oxbridge are more competitive than elsewhere. Some courses have a 40 or even 50% success rate. It really depends on the subject. Oxbridge feels more competitive in the sense that more engagement and effort is required in terms of choosing a college, aptitude tests (where applicable), submitted work and interviews - all these additional steps. But in terms of numbers of applicants to places, Oxbridge is is not always the most competitive for all courses. Yes, it’s true of course that everyone will have all A* to even be applying in the first place, but this is true of many unis (particularly in STEM subjects). All applicants to Imperial or LSE have similar grade profiles. Some of the internationals are on another level, frankly, This year, unis such as Durham and UCL have been turning down top grade candidates in the droves (many of whom had Oxbridge places). It happens. You just can’t tell. Unis seems to be looking for different things.

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 19:36

@shallswim

Is the answer to them change the curricula at Bristol and Exeter (and change marking scheme?). If such universities are getting applicants with a similar grade profile to Cambridge would it make sense to have degrees of similar rigour?

For teachers on here I was wondering is class ranking done at all? My children are nearing the end of primary and we are given reports which indicate they exceed a certain standard but there is nothing quantitative?

It just seems everything is relative to a class average in the modern day so is this relevant information to seek out. (I get the impression at our primary the teachers are reluctant to discuss relative positioning (maybe they can't??))

PresentingPercy · 06/04/2021 19:41

I think there are similarities between universities at the top end for lots of courses. MFL isn’t wildly different for example. The English courses might be but in general I think most people think the difference is greater workload in a shorter time. Employers probably won’t care about reading Old English.

I think that parents see Oxbridge as elite and teach their DC the same. I’ve seen it. Teachers say X university is just as good. DC don’t know anyone who has been to Oxbridge. We took DN to look around and BIL said it wasn’t for the likes of them. So that was it. DN preferred to go where his premier league club is. That’s not untypical and certainly, looking at destinations from DNs school, in Yorkshire, no one goes further south than Nottingham. It’s just more routine to stay in the north. There is no real interest in jobs in the south either so it won’t really matter to them. A huge proportion went to the 2 local universities that do outreach.

AlexaShutUp · 06/04/2021 19:48

It's a shame US universities may be out the price bracket of low income Oxbridge non successful applicants.

Actually, the US could potentially be a great option for high ability low income applicants, because quite a few of the top institutions follow a needs-blind admission policy with full funding available for those who are granted admission, if their financial circumstances warrant it. The massive catch to that is that you really need to know your way around the US admissions process, which is a totally different beast. With appropriate guidance and support, though, the top US institutions are most certainly affordable.

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 19:49

@quest1on

There are so many outstanding applicants out there and I think many will seek out good Oxbridge alternatives. (I think this seems fair in that those applicants deserve an education on par with Oxbridge).

Employers will go where the best talent lies and if some of that talent is now at other unis (or more so) then they will be targeted . Public sector employers may contextualize in that elite employers are looking to diversify the universities they are looking at.

Our interviews are now effectively university blind with degree classification being the only eligible criteria (and course) but obviously this is a sample of one.

I think in a way it's weird that government pressure historically had been to reduce selection for secondary education (abolition of grammars) yet selectivity is retained at a tertiary level.

SeasonFinale · 06/04/2021 19:52

@quest1on the point about getting a first at an ex-poly is not true though as the grading will usually be done on a curve and therefore they will get a certain percentage of firsts anyway. From looking at the stats of the average grade holders they may have far fewer at 3 x A* . The UCAS adviser tool can show how many have each grade so you can work out where in a cohort a student would lie before they even go.

shallIswim · 06/04/2021 19:56

@PresentingPercy

I think there are similarities between universities at the top end for lots of courses. MFL isn’t wildly different for example. The English courses might be but in general I think most people think the difference is greater workload in a shorter time. Employers probably won’t care about reading Old English.

I think that parents see Oxbridge as elite and teach their DC the same. I’ve seen it. Teachers say X university is just as good. DC don’t know anyone who has been to Oxbridge. We took DN to look around and BIL said it wasn’t for the likes of them. So that was it. DN preferred to go where his premier league club is. That’s not untypical and certainly, looking at destinations from DNs school, in Yorkshire, no one goes further south than Nottingham. It’s just more routine to stay in the north. There is no real interest in jobs in the south either so it won’t really matter to them. A huge proportion went to the 2 local universities that do outreach.

True employers won't care about old English. But it makes the Cambridge course harder; you've effectively got to learn another language! In a way you'd have to be a mug to apply to Cambridge with the same grades abs risk getting a 2.1 rather than easy First on a much easier course.
AlexaShutUp · 06/04/2021 19:59

As for the other universities providing a suitable alternative for excellent candidates who don't get into Oxbridge, they have always had this role. The balance of who does and doesn't get into Oxbridge has shifted, but there were always many excellent students who didn't get a place or didn't apply in the first place.

PresentingPercy · 06/04/2021 20:18

Report in the Times today about DC from poorer backgrounds being behind at age 5. It’s difficult to see how hard work by the DC will make up the ground and overcome this. So all the outreach in the world might not help unless we tackle 0-5 education.

hobbema · 06/04/2021 20:37

Also it’s not the case that all courses at Oxbridge are more competitive than elsewhere. Some courses have a 40 or even 50% success rate. It really depends on the subject. Oxbridge feels more competitive in the sense that more engagement and effort is required in terms of choosing a college, aptitude tests (where applicable), submitted work and interviews - all these additional steps. But in terms of numbers of applicants to places, Oxbridge is is not always the most competitive for all courses.

@quest1on, Hi, I remember chatting on another thread. In terms of how easy or difficult a course is in terms of competition isn’t as obviously straightforward as numbers applying.There are obviously fewer applicants for eg ASNAC than Medicine but looking at feeder A levels, in 2019, about 16% of A levels in Maths were awarded an A but only 5% were in History. So whose A is “ worth “ more ? That is clumsy language, apologies to readers, but I hope you get my point. Its really hard to draw conclusions about “easy “courses.

From the miniscule amount I know, PresentingPercy is bang on.. its 0-5 that counts most in terms of educational impact. Shame that so many SureStart centres closed.

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 21:02

Do all universities normalize grades so you have a constant percentage getting a degree classification every year? How does this explain the increase in firsts being given out over the years?

Degree classification have to be contextulisation to another level....I guess employers do look at a degree class. and contextualize to an institution.

With 2:1 and firsts being a cut off point for some career entrances are students willing to risk getting a 2:2 at an elite institution (especially if the marks are normalised)?

mids2019 · 06/04/2021 21:06

Agree with sure start closure being a mistake. I think outreach needs to be complemented on early years intervention. I guess a lot of cognitive development happens early in life and relatively simple strategies like encouraging reading to children are vital.

Xenia · 06/04/2021 22:03

We had one first in our year at Manchester and I was a 2/1 despite being top in 2 subjects. Some years no first were given at all and only a third of people got 2/1 or higher, rest got 2/2 or lower and that was out of only 15% of 18 year olds going to university at all. Different world today but still employers need to find people who can do particularly jobs from complex brain surgery to lead violin in the top orchestra, from law firms to investment banks.

We can choose people on all kinds of bases for work from a lottery out of a hat or pure exam results or skin colours (actually the latter is illegal) or class or weight or looks or all sorts of stuff. Probably most useful is if the person will be good at that job.

DinkyDaisy · 07/04/2021 07:46

I know someone who has been offered a full scholarship/ bursary to a private sixth form from a school where getting 7-9s unusual.
The contextual consideration is interesting. This child considered turning down this good private school as a good sixth form college in the area.
However, has taken the private sixth form place.
Conversely, the state sixth form often gets kids moving from private to it so that is where the dilemma lay!

goodbyestranger · 07/04/2021 09:02

There isn't a dilemma because as a previous poster has said, the contextualisation is for GCSEs.

DinkyDaisy · 07/04/2021 09:06

Thanks.
This kid deserves a break...

goodbyestranger · 07/04/2021 09:10

Just leaving the house but in terms of educational access to the very top universities for the intellectually able but socially disadvantaged, there's a huge programme which has been taking shape over the past decade by the top grammars to try to identify those DC at mid primary level and try to do everything possible to help them during primary, into the grammar and then onto the top universities. Not all grammars are as on top of this as others. But in a nutshell, the process is almost identical to the Oxbridge outreach programme, with exactly the same rationale.

MarshaBradyo · 07/04/2021 09:14

@goodbyestranger

Just leaving the house but in terms of educational access to the very top universities for the intellectually able but socially disadvantaged, there's a huge programme which has been taking shape over the past decade by the top grammars to try to identify those DC at mid primary level and try to do everything possible to help them during primary, into the grammar and then onto the top universities. Not all grammars are as on top of this as others. But in a nutshell, the process is almost identical to the Oxbridge outreach programme, with exactly the same rationale.
It starts to highlight split between non grammar area and grammar.