Maths & further maths A levels - any disadvantage to doing both?

[hipposeleven]

My ds is planning to do A levels in maths, further maths, history and psychology. He might drop either psychology or history if he decides it's better to focus on 3.

I wondered whether there's any disadvantage in having both maths and further maths at A level? Would all universities count these as 2 separate A levels? He may do a maths degree, but isn't really decided yet, so I'm worried that he might not be seen as having a broad enough range of subjects if he does three, of which two are maths. Does anyone have any experience of this, particularly any dcs with both maths A levels applying for a non-maths degree?

I know 2 mechanical engineering first year students who did not take FM (& school offers it). Now at Loughborough and Sheffield.
FM is a great A level if you love maths. But it is not required unless going on to take a mathsy subject at certain Unis.

You don’t need FM for engineering BEng but you might for MEng. Always check the course and the preferred subjects at A level.

@mumsneedwine

If is a full A level but some Uni courses only count one of maths and FM. So you need 2 others to get in. As this young man has no idea what he wants to do keeping his options open seems wise.

Very few, in reality.

I was randomly looking at entry requirements for history at a few places, and whereas I'm pretty sure that most used to require history A level, some of them don't now. It may be that the squeeze on number of A levels combined with a shift of more applicants towards vocational and STEM degrees away from humanities etc may tend to make requirements for the latter less specific - but conversely some of the stem subjects might become yet more competitive.

“ If is a full A level but some Uni courses only count one of maths and FM. So you need 2 others to get in. As this young man has no idea what he wants to do keeping his options open seems wise.”

Which Unis don’s count FM as a valid a-level (ie one of 3 a levels)? I don’t think I have come across any, but obviously have not checked all of them.

Be interesting to know

For example, Cambridge preferred A levels for engineering are: maths + physics + further maths

Swansea, very different type of Uni, asks for Maths + 2 of Chem/FM/Physics/DT/IT

In both Unis FM is counted as a proper A level (and not just counted fully, but very desirable)

Bride, it is common in medicine and economics, and presumably some other STEM subjects.

Three subjects is not much, and if two are maths, there is not room for much else.

Ironically courses that say that they do not consider double maths, often really like FM when offered as a fourth A level. I suspect some of the "experts" including math teacher husbands are not aware of how very mathematical and data driven some degrees are now.

DS read economics at LSE (graduating in econometrics) and he reckons he could have got away with only two economics courses, with the other 10, essentially maths. He had FM (a bit like OPs DC he took history, economics, maths and FM) and said he did not envy those attempting the course without FM. They had quite a lot of catch up. Other social sciences will be similar. You can certainly study them, but if you are a talented mathematician with an interest in research you are best off taking FM. Nowadays data dominates.

DD, who is a medic, is finding similar. You can certainly be a medic without FM. However she is now taking a research orientated intercalation, and even though maths A level was required and there was an additional summer school, it is still pretty stretching. Her friend who did take FM as a fourth, and is a genuinely talented mathematician, is doing even more maths in an intercalation which involves understanding infection and immunity rates. (Wrong year - it is completely Covid dominated.)

Other social sciences will be similar. You can certainly study them, but if you are a talented mathematician with an interest in research you are best off taking FM. Nowadays data dominates.

DS' was comfortable with economics and maths for A level, but more worried about history and FM. There is a step up at A level. In the event he found FM way more interesting than anything at GCSE, whilst he found history, and the requirement for argument and evidence, harder that he had expected. If you start with four, you have room to drop one.

@Needmoresleep that is interesting

As an immigrant who was not educated here myself, I am constantly gathering information

I went with DS 6th form college advice, they said very strongly:

• only do 3 A levels and get the highest grades you can
• for Engineering: do Maths, FM and Physics
• FM is full, valid A level

They said at parent evening that Unis are moving away from wanting 4 A levels, and 3 strong a levels is enough, even for Oxbridge

They said this was a fairly recent move, and also ties in with AS levels being dropped (so previously kids chose maybe 4, then dropped one for the second yr of college), and that whilst previously FM was seen as a fourth (extra) a-level it is now a stand alone option (but only if you do maths too)

FWIW it’s a state 6th form in a somewhat rough area (knife crime etc :( ) but they always get a good amount of kids into top unis

Bride, it is common in medicine and economics, and presumably some other STEM subjects.

There's just a few other stem subjects - or rather specific uni courses in those subjects - which might want both chemistry and biology.
There are some (including an economics one upthread) where 3 inc fm isn't a total no-no but would make you less competitive.

There's the thing... the requirements are the baseline, but on the most competitive courses (oxbridge and the top London ones, not necessarily other RGs in general) then you may be more likely to get a place if you've got a more ideal combination, maybe inc 4th subject.

Engineering: FM, M and P are perfect. You really won’t need anything else. Imperial ask for 3. There is no need for another subject. Get the top grades in what you take is the best advice and all doors will be open. Everywhere!

Imperial medicine asks for Biology and Chemistry plus another subject. One more subject. Not two. Not even maths! How Ed it is useful no doubt. Three A levels is the norm. That doesn’t mean that some courses are better prepared for with 4. However universities want to include more students. Four A levels are often taken in independent schools and widening participation now means 3 is perfectly ok and FM can be one. Many science courses are not overly competitive either. Some are but the numbers doing 4 A levels are probably concentrated in a few unis.

And re competitive courses/4th subjects... admissions tutors are capable of taking into account that at one type of school 4 subjects may be the norm but at others it won't, and adjusting their offer accordingly. For the most competitive subjects, Cambridge is likely to make an offer based on 4 subjects if your application is based on 4. I'm not sure anywhere else does this though.

@ErrolTheDragon I’ve heard that if you take 4 a levels, all offers are based on 4

In other words: you cannot just leave out your lowest a level

So if you’d have A*AAC you can’t leave off the C

Bride, a lot depends on context.

Very bright kids can often manage four comfortably, especially if two are maths. Our experience was that both DC got better at maths as it became more interesting and they started to understand practical applications.

If taking four will cause stress or mean that DC do less well, then you should take three, as Universities cannot demand four, and know that not all schools offer FM.

However if a fourth is available and well taught, and the DC is able to handle stress and enjoys maths, it is worth considering FM as a fourth. Learning rarely goes to waste and maths has crept into everything. Especially if they are considering applying for very competitive courses in London or Oxbridge. (There is a big international context to this. DS was the only student from England out of 39 during his Masters at LSE. DD similarly has no other English students in any of her project groups this term, and indeed very few medics, though interestingly lots of Europeans as well as Asians. For quantitative courses you are competing again the best in the world. If maths is important you will be at an advantage offering it.)

But context again. Universities are aware of the gap in provision between some state schools, and private/grammar schools and will not want to disadvantage pupils who have have potential but have not been able to offer FM as a fourth A level.

One surprise to me is the extent that medic DD has been able to phone her brother (stuck in the US taking an economics PhD) and ask for help. Very different subjects but the underpinning maths seems universal. They both also seem to need to be comfortable with coding, which I don't think they have learnt formally, but have needed to pick up along the way.

[quote BrideofBideford]@ErrolTheDragon I’ve heard that if you take 4 a levels, all offers are based on 4

In other words: you cannot just leave out your lowest a level

So if you’d have A*AAC you can’t leave off the C[/quote]
Yes, for some subjects if the 4th subject is weaker then it's safer to drop it before you make the application and apply on the basis of 3.

The offer on 4 A levels, as Errol suggests, can be contextual, or rather reverse contextual. I would not worry.

DC were at a very academic London private school and we knew several who ended up with, and met, 4A* offers. One of DS' friends was even given a five A level offer from Imperial (who used to vary their offers a lot - I suspect he was a more marginal applicant.) The assumption was that Universities were aware that these applicants were very academically advantaged, so set a higher bar. Perhaps many of them would not have received an offer at all if they were only offering three.

Most other Universities do not bother. Having that extra A level just gives you extra knowledge that may be useful later on. And a bit of wiggle room if you drop a grade. (DD ran out of her physics exam in order to throw up. She still got the grade she needed, despite bombing that paper. Having wiggle room meant that the next couple of months were less anxious.)

Thanks this is all reassuring to me

My oldest DS doing a levels is not an MN type “ super bright kid”, in fact he has SEN and I am pretty chuffed he’s doing A levels at all (He can’t write well, sadly, nor spell (dyslexia + no English until he was 7, when we moved here) , and especially such “difficult” subjects as Maths, FM and Physics (smug emoticon), that we never considered a fourth a-level for him.

Fingers crossed for all our DC and their choices ahead

I’m definitely in the “3 is fine” camp. DS (now a second year student) dropped a subject to do maths, FM, and another - like a PP I had emailed
Imperial and Oxford admissions for his subject to ask about it, both said it was fine. He didn’t apply to either but did get an offer from Cambridge.

But - if you’re not doing a degree that needs maths, FM is probably going to add less than another more essay-based subject.

As the OP’s son still isn’t sure what he might like to do after school, I would suggest starting with all 4 and seeing how things go, which direction his ability and interests lean (as A level can be quite different to GCSE), and drop one at some point before y13.

This is all very helpful - thank you. Sorry for not doing individual mentions, but all of the comments have been useful. It's good to have such a range of views and experience.

I'm getting DS to read through this thread and have suggested doing some research on different degree subjects to get a realistic idea of at least a few he might be interested in, and what their entry requirements are, so that he can decide on the best A level combination.

@BrideofBideford

Thanks this is all reassuring to me

My oldest DS doing a levels is not an MN type “ super bright kid”, in fact he has SEN and I am pretty chuffed he’s doing A levels at all (He can’t write well, sadly, nor spell (dyslexia + no English until he was 7, when we moved here) , and especially such “difficult” subjects as Maths, FM and Physics (smug emoticon), that we never considered a fourth a-level for him.

Fingers crossed for all our DC and their choices ahead

Uni stem departments often have quite a lot of students with those characteristics. Thank heavens there's an understanding not everyone is anything like an all-rounder! And there are loads of courses which those subjects will be perfect for at a range of grade requirements.

You should be rightly proud.

Universities are looking for fit and potential. There is a huge range of courses, so something for everyone. And almost certainly part of the problem is the huge international demand for a relatively small number of courses. We are lucky to have such a strong tertiary education sector. It is a pity if good kids can't access them because of poor advice.

@hipposeleven

This is all very helpful - thank you. Sorry for not doing individual mentions, but all of the comments have been useful. It's good to have such a range of views and experience.

I'm getting DS to read through this thread and have suggested doing some research on different degree subjects to get a realistic idea of at least a few he might be interested in, and what their entry requirements are, so that he can decide on the best A level combination.

Good ... and especially that you're encouraging your DS to do the research on subjects! If he finds himself uncertain about specific points, then he can email a few uni admissions tutors to ask for clarification. Details should be easy to find on course websites. DD did this when she was deciding on her A level choices and got some lovely helpful responses.

If he's not sure that he wants to do maths at university then I wouldn't do FM at A level and also I wouldn't necessarily do it with Psychology or History. There is some statistical work in Psychology at university but you don't need Maths/FM A level to be able to do it, I'd put FM alongside Physics or one of the other core sciences.

Has he thought about doing the EPQ instead of 4 subjects?

Forgot to say, I'd love to know if anyone has any recommendations of good websites that give suggestions/info on non-school subject degrees, e.g. "if you like maths then have a look at..."

Yes, for some subjects if the 4th subject is weaker then it's safer to drop it before you make the application and apply on the basis of 3.

Sound advice. My DC did that and got into Bristol with AAA whereas carrying on the 4th subject would have most likely been AAAB/C so it was dropped after the AS level (obviously a few years ago now).

@hipposeleven

Forgot to say, I'd love to know if anyone has any recommendations of good websites that give suggestions/info on non-school subject degrees, e.g. "if you like maths then have a look at..."

Try this - it gives the common outcomes for a level combinations but also less common ones. You can put in 3 or 4 subjects

www.theuniguide.co.uk/a-level-explorer

These tow might be possibly useful:

londonpublishingpartnership.co.uk/why-study-mathematics/
londonpublishingpartnership.co.uk/why-study-history/

two. Sorry!