Maths & further maths A levels - any disadvantage to doing both?

[hipposeleven]

My ds is planning to do A levels in maths, further maths, history and psychology. He might drop either psychology or history if he decides it's better to focus on 3.

I wondered whether there's any disadvantage in having both maths and further maths at A level? Would all universities count these as 2 separate A levels? He may do a maths degree, but isn't really decided yet, so I'm worried that he might not be seen as having a broad enough range of subjects if he does three, of which two are maths. Does anyone have any experience of this, particularly any dcs with both maths A levels applying for a non-maths degree?

DD in year 13 was undecided between maths and geography at uni when she picked her A levels. She is doing maths, further maths, geography and history, and loving all of them.
She eventually decided on maths and philosophy for uni, so needed the double maths.

Might he want to consider an Economics degree for which he needs Maths A level. A quite common combo at our school is MAths, FM, History and Economics.

A good choice I think. My dd did maths, further maths, physics and chemistry but dropped chemistry after the first year.

She got a maths masters degree and is now a secondary school maths teacher.

Maths, FM, History and Economics is a great combination for PPE. That keeps lots of doors open. Also M, FM and Physics are great for most forms of engineering. The universities, generally speaking, cannot afford to be ultra choosy!

I would look at various careers and see what he might enjoy. Do you know about the different branches of engineering? What about Architecture? There are so many opportunities for mathematicians (and problem solvers) besides the obvious financial jobs.

Actually OP, her combination sounds perfect for behavioural economics, an important and growing field.

I don’t see a disadvantage with at least starting with both Maths and FM for A level. That is the best way for him to gauge whether he has the interest and ability to consider a maths degree. By the end of year 12 he should have a good idea and even if he drops the FM, it will have helped his maths skills and eventual A level maths grade. The dilemma for him as discussed by PP is what his fourth subject should be, another stem (physics or computing) or psychology or economics or philosophy or whatever.

It depends on what he’s planning to do at University really. For some subjects (Maths / Engineering for instance) it would be a positive. For many “essay” subjects it would be a negative. See attached from LSE admissions statement for Politics as an example.

* I got accepted for a top level maths degree without FM (school didn't offer it). WHAT a mistake. If there is any chance he will want to go on to study a degree with a large maths element then he really ought to do FM. Try it for at least the first year.*

Exactly the same experience here @MyFloorIsLava. The gap between the maths I had learnt at school and where they began at university was massive. It took me at least the first year to catch up and was hugely stressful.

Looking at some science courses there are also some problems with Maths, FM & 1 other - this is Imperial (Medical Bioscience) so I would suggest he is cautious about limiting options.

I would say for FM to make sense, he would need to love maths and he would probably know himself that he was heading towards a degree in maths, physics, engineering.

The "makes 1st year easier" argument is a double edged sword in my view. It only applies maths/physics/eng type courses and even then it comes at the expense of a missed opportunity for a broader education.

I did maths/fm/physics chemistry years ago, have a maths based career and while it's been great, I've always felt I specialised too early and missed out on an education. I wish I done history instead of FM. I found 1st year uni a bit boring as it was repetitive and 2nd year was a massive step up. (Caveat is back when far fewer schools offered FM so the prior assumed knowledge was maths a level).

Degree level maths is very different to school maths and it has to be your passion for it to be the right choice.

Kitty. The OPs DC is thinking of taking FM as a fourth.

There can be disadvantage in having just Maths, FM and one other, except for maths and physics, as it does not show much breadth. However FM as an extra can be very valuable for a wide range of subjects. A mix of maths and essay subjects is particularly useful for social sciences. So much is now data driven.

FM is an excellent choice for a 4th subject for anyone who may want to go into numerate fields -MarshaBradyo's dc upthread has a pretty classic combo of subjects.

It's a pretty good 4th subject in general for kids who are very good at maths as many schools discourage more than 3 except if including fm, and it's probably easier than 4 unrelated subjects.

It's fine as one of 3 subjects alongside physics (or more rarely, another subject) for those who know exactly what they want to do and it's one of maths, physics, engineering other than chemical, or computer science. Even then it's a good idea to start 4, and also do something else such as an EPQ.
My DD is in her final year of Engineering at Cambridge with maths, FM and physics, plus a relevant EPQ and AS comp sci. Such a pity they can't still start 4 and drop one after AS, it makes these decisions harder nowadays.

There are a few top economics courses which have the caution against fm except as a 4th subject. They're more of the exception. And obviously there are many science/medical courses where chemistry is the essential, and sometimes biology.

They cannot keep all the doors open - so, if you don't know which you want to go through then I guess you just have to try to only close the ones you are pretty sure you aren't interested in. For the OPs DS, the psychology sounds a bit random and maybe not the best choice for keeping options open.

@Needmoresleep yes I know the OP mentioned it as a 4th - I was commenting more to the posters who mentioned there was never a problem if offering just Maths, FM + 1 other.

I believe that there was some research done a few years ago which showed that there are no university courses that you cannot do with Maths, FM and one other (but there are some courses that you cannot do without Maths and Further maths, Maths at Cambridge and Maths at Imperial). Maths at Oxford say that you don't need FM, but in practice virtually all of the undergraduates have it, and if your school offered it and you decided against it then you would have a very uphill challenge. So if he is thinking that he might like to do Maths and Philosophy at Oxford then I would strongly suggest he takes FM!

Similarly FM is an advantage for other maths heavy courses (I think doing FM is more of an advantage for studying economics than A level economics, but please don't take my word for that).

Probably the best thing to do is plan to take all four (if he is a strong mathematician then single maths probably won't be too much work) and then drop one later what he has a better idea of what he wants to do at uni.

The thought of doing two essay subjects is terrifying to me! (I did Maths, FM, Physics and economics a long time ago)

Having just looked back at the last few posts, it looks like the "maths, FM + one other is fine" research is now out of dates, sorry!

It might be a little hard (aimed at sixth-formers), but he might like tom look at the Oxford online maths club

For those of you who said FM is very hard work, surely if he finds it too hard then a maths degree wouldn't be a good choice? And presumably there would be a big gap at uni between those with FM and those without?

That's a good way to look at it, and for someone with maths as one of their possible uni ideas, a very good reason of itself to start FM as a fourth. A level maths is a lot more interesting than gcse, and FM even moreso.

In terms of him thinking more about possible uni courses, there's a lot of info on their websites nowadays, moreso than ever as they've had to create 'virtual open days'. Maybe in the Easter hols, and certainly in the summer before he makes his final A level choices, it would be a good idea for him to spend time looking at some.

Can't do medicine, vet med, dentistry at most places with maths, FM and one other. Sure there are many more degrees that specify certain A levels.
I'd suggest start with 4 and see how it goes. Maths A level is v different to GCSE and lots find it not what they expected.

I believe that there was some research done a few years ago which showed that there are no university courses that you cannot do with Maths, FM and one other

You must surely mean 'no university maths courses', not 'no university courses'? It's always been the case you need chemistry for medicine, for instance, afaik.

Well... I suppose very few uni courses are completely impossible as for many subjects there's the option of a foundation year if they've done the wrong A levels but that costs time and money.

I checked with DH before I replied- he’s a maths teacher of 20 years standing, has led a maths hub and is his school’s advisor in Oxbridge entry (rather than because I defer to all DH’s thoughts as a matter of course).

Maths and FM are totally different A’Levels, with little overlap of content- although you can’t do FM without the grounding provided by maths. There would be little concern about studying both. However, he would need to love maths, as this would dominate his life for the next 2 years. All good if he’s planning to do a maths degree!

If thinking of a non-maths degree, assuming not engineering/sciences given the A’Levels, the non maths A’Levels stated should give the experience of research, analysis and essay writing needed. Is it possible to do 4 to the end of yr12 and take one as an AS before dropping one, ahead of yr13?

@ErrolTheDragon - when the funding for colleges/sixth forms went down from 4 to 3 A levels there was a concern that students would ditch further maths (so if they were thinking of doing either maths or history at uni they would do Maths/History/English thinking that the English would be more helpful and doing maths would mean they were fine to do a maths degree, rather than Maths/FM/History which would actually leave more Maths/history options open). Perhaps it was "no non-STEM subject?". I see if I can find the report (no luck yet - I've tried JMC and AMSP so far).

[quote Pallando]@ErrolTheDragon - when the funding for colleges/sixth forms went down from 4 to 3 A levels there was a concern that students would ditch further maths (so if they were thinking of doing either maths or history at uni they would do Maths/History/English thinking that the English would be more helpful and doing maths would mean they were fine to do a maths degree, rather than Maths/FM/History which would actually leave more Maths/history options open). Perhaps it was "no non-STEM subject?". I see if I can find the report (no luck yet - I've tried JMC and AMSP so far).[/quote]
It's just some (but not all) of the med schools and related subjects which require both chemistry and biology.
So it's probably correct that there's no, or very few subjects that can't be done with somewhere with maths, FM and one other - obviously what that one other is will often matter.

If he's good at maths and enjoys it, FM can be brilliant. I did it and loved how much it pushed me and (in my syllabus a million years ago) the open ended problem solving stuff was a great intro to uni level work.
I didn't go on to do a maths degree, but it allowed me to skip some lower maths modules on my computing degree.

An advantage of doing it is being in a class of high achievers, you can't be a slacker, you have to keep up, it moves briskly. Those are also the downsides, you have pressure to keep up, you can't wait for a concept to click, it is relentless.

Things have changed and I am not sure everyone on Mumsnet is up to date (not sure I know everything either though! )

But our local 6th form says FM is now a full A-level, that Uni’s only need you to do 3 a levels, and are moving away from seeing FM as a “fourth” a level

My DS is doing maths, further maths, and physics. The routes open to him with these subjects are Engineering (almost all engineering degrees require FM, I did not know that!) Maths, Physics

So very STEM based, and if you want to do engineering or maths, doing FM is wise (essential even)

DS who loves maths is enjoying FM, it’s very different from normal Maths so not boring

(almost all engineering degrees require FM, I did not know that!)

Pedantically, none do. It's 'highly desirable' or 'must be taken if the school offers it. And lower entry requirement courses probably won't even have that. But yes 'and if you want to do engineering or maths, doing FM is wise'.

If is a full A level but some Uni courses only count one of maths and FM. So you need 2 others to get in. As this young man has no idea what he wants to do keeping his options open seems wise.