No uni return til Aug/Sept

[Newgirls]

So Edin and St A have said no f2f teaching til next academic year (apart from med and some post-grad) and students should not be there unless v specific needs. Very sad that this cohort are going through this. I assume English unis will follow?

@sashagabadon

If every academics are desperate to get back on campus then why aren’t they screeching it from the roof tops? Why aren’t the VC’s or whoever all over radio 4 lobbying for this, explaining how they can operate safely, what they can put in place to make it safe, like the airlines for example do. The truth is they are not, in fact they seem to prefer the opposite and I can imagine the goal posts will be moved continuously given the chance. I am only speaking as a prospective parent so I will just have to watch and see what happens but I doubt students or their parents will be so easily tricked into signing contracts this coming year.

Just because I want to teach face to face does mean it’s safe I guess. I’m happy to take the risk, more so now I’ve been vaccinated but even before being vaccinated I have taught some limited face to face sessions.

But people higher than me in the university say it isn’t safe. They can’t provide a covid safe environment. So guess they’re worried about someone getting it (student or staff) and being very ill or dying (one colleague died just after the first lockdown) and the university get sued for not providing a safe environment.

Also they’ll be worried about a big outbreak amongst staff who then go off sick and can’t teach at all....either face to face or even online. I’m currently the last lecturer standing on my course for one reason or another. If I get covid they’re screwed. 🤷‍♀️ Yes, they’re recruiting but it takes time.

Anyway was in a meeting this week, official line is they’re still waiting on govt advice to see what can happen after Easter.

But people higher than me in the university say it isn’t safe. They can’t provide a covid safe environment. So guess they’re worried about someone getting it (student or staff) and being very ill or dying (one colleague died just after the first lockdown) and the university get sued for not providing a safe environment.

Has that happened in any of the other working environments who are carrying on, such as hospitals, shops, factories, warehouses, etc?? They havn't just shut down. But of course, Unis are different because they've got the money for providing a poorer "service" so they don't actually need to put much effort into doing F2F etc do they. Shops, factories etc go bankrupt if they don't carry on providing their core services. Unis have a captive audience who were effectively tricked into signing up last September on the promise of "blended learning".

@sashagabadon

I don’t mean you jerk. I mean the VC’s , professors etc. You ever hear from them on the radio at all! Why not?!

You'll have to ask some vice chancellors that question! It's way above my pay grade.

However, if I were a VC I'd be wary of engaging the media. They rarely write anything positive about the sector.

@Onesipmore

Its very tricky.I have one up North who gets 4 hours a week online.Some is prerecorded and some is f2f, but never 1-2-1. She is basically teaching herself and hasn't been on campus since March. (she's 2nd year) I have one down South who is a first year and at home. None of her flat mates returned after Xmas so there was no point going back to be lonely. She was promised blended learning, signed the contract and then the blended part seemed to evaporate. Like another poster she hasn't met a single course mate, has joined no societies as there aren't any, can't go to the gym etc.It is regardless of what anyone says about the overall experience and the Government have woefully let this cohort down.

The Unis who promised "blended learning" but never even started actually doing that, even at the start of term, really do need to be taken to task for their blatant lies just to get students to sign up for their courses and accommodation. If you look at the website history websites (way back machine) some Unis were really blatant about it - promising "blended learning" right up to deadline day for signing contracts and then virtually immediately afterwards changing their webpages to remove those promises.

@sashagabadon

If every academics are desperate to get back on campus then why aren’t they screeching it from the roof tops? Why aren’t the VC’s or whoever all over radio 4 lobbying for this, explaining how they can operate safely, what they can put in place to make it safe, like the airlines for example do. The truth is they are not, in fact they seem to prefer the opposite and I can imagine the goal posts will be moved continuously given the chance. I am only speaking as a prospective parent so I will just have to watch and see what happens but I doubt students or their parents will be so easily tricked into signing contracts this coming year.

Yes a good point. Those without a clear income are being very vocal about how they can open (eg hospitality, theatres) but those with an income v quiet. Because why would they?

@Onesipmore

Its very tricky.I have one up North who gets 4 hours a week online.Some is prerecorded and some is f2f, but never 1-2-1. She is basically teaching herself and hasn't been on campus since March. (she's 2nd year) I have one down South who is a first year and at home. None of her flat mates returned after Xmas so there was no point going back to be lonely. She was promised blended learning, signed the contract and then the blended part seemed to evaporate. Like another poster she hasn't met a single course mate, has joined no societies as there aren't any, can't go to the gym etc.It is regardless of what anyone says about the overall experience and the Government have woefully let this cohort down.

Agree. Even when unis have testing set up and seem able to do things, they are being told not to.

@Kazzyhoward

But people higher than me in the university say it isn’t safe. They can’t provide a covid safe environment. So guess they’re worried about someone getting it (student or staff) and being very ill or dying (one colleague died just after the first lockdown) and the university get sued for not providing a safe environment.

Has that happened in any of the other working environments who are carrying on, such as hospitals, shops, factories, warehouses, etc?? They havn't just shut down. But of course, Unis are different because they've got the money for providing a poorer "service" so they don't actually need to put much effort into doing F2F etc do they. Shops, factories etc go bankrupt if they don't carry on providing their core services. Unis have a captive audience who were effectively tricked into signing up last September on the promise of "blended learning".

Exactly this.

Basically then someone in GOV said ‘we can’t afford to bail out unis and lose students so let’s say open, and then blame it on partying students and send them home. But fees and accom paid so phew, dodged that one.’

But no working environment is truest safe and you don’t hear others making these arguments. Surely the risk of being sued would apply to supermarkets and factories and hospitals but it doesn’t because it is an excuse rather than an argument.
As someone that has gone to work in a hospital every day since March and never once refused as I feel “ unsafe” I don’t have a lot of sympathy especially where students are charged huge fees for the privilege of getting a second rate service.

I am a vulnerable HE employee and I dread being asked to go into the office but that's me personally. However, I haven't seen enough information on how they are making the campus covid secure. I'm not too convinced.

I think the least that should happen is that students are allowed to re-take the full year, at no cost and no detriment, as this year has been so disastrous from an educational and social perspective for them, a lot of which has been caused by some Uni's poor handling of the pandemic.

@sashagabadon

But no working environment is truest safe and you don’t hear others making these arguments. Surely the risk of being sued would apply to supermarkets and factories and hospitals but it doesn’t because it is an excuse rather than an argument. As someone that has gone to work in a hospital every day since March and never once refused as I feel “ unsafe” I don’t have a lot of sympathy especially where students are charged huge fees for the privilege of getting a second rate service.

You know universities are following government guidelines don't you? I never felt unsafe on campus and pushed for on campus teaching but it was actually quite difficult to teach in a socially distanced way. Currently my online teaching is providing a far better experience for the students than they were getting in a socially distanced classroom. My students have told me this so it's not just my opinion. It's certainly not second rate. I know I can only speak about my course but I really wish people would stop making sweeping generalisations about the quality of teaching. There is actually some good stuff going on!

I loved being on campus and as soon as I'm allowed to I'll be offering on campus teaching - let's hope it's without social distancing though!

@jabbathebutt

I am a vulnerable HE employee and I dread being asked to go into the office but that's me personally. However, I haven't seen enough information on how they are making the campus covid secure. I'm not too convinced.

Lots of campuses are safe because they're ghost towns, even before this latest lockdown. With students "trapped" in their flats because there's nothing to do, nowhere to go, and lecturers/staff working from home and many not even setting foot on campus premises for several months. It's all way over the top. Unis could have been made a lot "safer" whilst also having reduced number of staff on campus, reduced F2F teaching, etc., but no, so many have gone the whole hog and basically just shut up shop, hiding behind closed doors, except courses which have essential F2F for the likes of medicine, lab work, etc. That's easy to do when you know the money is rolling in anyway, unlike a shop or factory who have had to find ways to carry on operating as close to normal as possible as there's no money coming in if they can't sell. The Uni funding model has enabled them to hide behind closed doors and provide a poor service - a bit like dental practices, GPs etc who get money whether they provide usual services or not (i.e. "per patient" capitation funding).

I loved being on campus and as soon as I'm allowed to I'll be offering on campus teaching - let's hope it's without social distancing though!

Were you on campus in the October term doing F2F as usual then? Before the current govt guidelines saying to do remote teaching unless F2F was essential??

@Kazzyhoward

I loved being on campus and as soon as I'm allowed to I'll be offering on campus teaching - let's hope it's without social distancing though!

Were you on campus in the October term doing F2F as usual then? Before the current govt guidelines saying to do remote teaching unless F2F was essential??

Yes. I taught on campus up until the 8th December. We were told by the government to move online from that date.

My on campus hours were less than normal times due to restrictions on rooms. We were only allowed rooms for 3 hours when usually I'd have my students for longer. The on campus hours were supplemented with live Teams sessions.

Yes. I taught on campus up until the 8th December. We were told by the government to move online from that date. My on campus hours were less than normal times due to restrictions on rooms. We were only allowed rooms for 3 hours when usually I'd have my students for longer. The on campus hours were supplemented with live Teams sessions.

Just shows the difference between Unis then. None of my son's lecturers (Maths degree) have set foot on campus since last Easter - they freely admit that. Most have been good with their online teaching, but a couple really havn't engaged at all. For one, her "live" lecturers are basically her being live for a few minutes just to introduce the recording of last year's lecturers, she doesn't even stay around for a "live" conclusion or goodbye. That's not "live" in anyone's book, but in "Uni-land" it's on the system as a live session.

Were you on campus in the October term doing F2F as usual then? Before the current govt guidelines saying to do remote teaching unless F2F was essential??

Lots of us were. This narrative that no students have had f2f teaching is just wrong. I did 100% of my teaching f2f in the autumn term. But we had to wear masks and sit apart, which is not ideal as audibility was poor. It was fine for the first year teaching I did back then but there is no way I could get the kind of high-level discussion going that is needed for the module I’m teaching this term. Teaching is not just about social contact, there’s the learning process to think of, and in the case of the specialist, discussion-based modules I’m teaching this term, the discussion actually works better online that it would with masked, distanced participants who can’t hear each other properly. I’m happy to be in the classroom for certain modules, but not for others.

And before anyone says we should just teach without social distancing and masks, the Students Union has been very clear that students don’t want that. Before the March lockdown last year, we were down to 15% attendance as students were too scared to come in.

"Every academic I know is desperate to be back on campus teaching f2f"
That is encouraging to hear, nice to read. I think it would be a shame though if all seminars and tutorials carry on as zoom/teams - it is interesting that students say they work better, but ime (very very long ago), that was a way to meet other students and get into discussing the work as well as making friends.

In-person tutorials/seminars also get the students out of their rooms! - and regardless of the 'university is basically about the academic learning' argument, the social side is important to many of them - and it can't be good for them to stay in working in their rooms all the time.

As a dparent, if I had a dc currently making decisions about where to go I would be suggesting to them to look into how students in halls have fared at various points this year.

I should say that I teach an arts subject and we teach in small groups. Maths is very different as students are normally taught in huge groups and have a much fuller timetable as well.

That's not "live" in anyone's book, but in "Uni-land" it's on the system as a live session.

Again, that’s a generalisation. That wouldn’t count as live teaching where I work.

"And before anyone says we should just teach without social distancing and masks, the Students Union has been very clear that students don’t want that. Before the March lockdown last year, we were down to 15% attendance as students were too scared to come in."

That is really interesting. Will be interesting to see if that changes now - maybe not, as the young will be last to be vaccinated.

Just shows the difference between Unis then. None of my son's lecturers (Maths degree) have set foot on campus since last Easter - they freely admit that. Most have been good with their online teaching, but a couple really havn't engaged at all. For one, her "live" lecturers are basically her being live for a few minutes just to introduce the recording of last year's lecturers, she doesn't even stay around for a "live" conclusion or goodbye. That's not "live" in anyone's book, but in "Uni-land" it's on the system as a live session.

This is what I've been saying throughout this whole thread. Every university is different and has approached it differently. It's why I get frustrated when people lump us all together!!

I have occasionally used a previous recording but only as extra info and never as a replacement for 'live'. We just couldn't get away with that at my university. They've invested a lot of time in looking at the pedagogy of online learning and staff have had to engage with this. It's actually been quite exciting at times and some of the online stuff has worked really well! I've managed to secure far more high profile guest lecturers this year as it's far less hassle for them to deliver a teams session than travel to us.

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead

"And before anyone says we should just teach without social distancing and masks, the Students Union has been very clear that students don’t want that. Before the March lockdown last year, we were down to 15% attendance as students were too scared to come in."

That is really interesting. Will be interesting to see if that changes now - maybe not, as the young will be last to be vaccinated.

We also had exam boycotts in March. The students refused to enter the building!

. I think it would be a shame though if all seminars and tutorials carry on as zoom/teams - it is interesting that students say they work better, but ime (very very long ago), that was a way to meet other students and get into discussing the work as well as making friends.

This will depend on how individual universities use tutorials and seminars.

I will revert back to on campus seminars when I can as that group learning is important but lots of my students are commuter students so the 1:1 tutorials work better online as these often take place on a non teaching day.

"We also had exam boycotts in March. The students refused to enter the building!"

Again, very interesting! I suppose the atmosphere by the middle of last March was pretty high-anxiety in most places. My impression is that it is less so now - but we will see soon I suppose!