No uni return til Aug/Sept

[Newgirls]

So Edin and St A have said no f2f teaching til next academic year (apart from med and some post-grad) and students should not be there unless v specific needs. Very sad that this cohort are going through this. I assume English unis will follow?

So no gowns. No certificate. Sit on the grass with picnic Just a ceremony outside with a loud haler and some nice words.

And if it rains? Which is more likely than not. Oddly enough, our students understand the reason for the decision and, though disappointed, prefer to wait until the proper ceremony that they have always looked forward to is possible rather than be fobbed off with some naff washed-out event which misses out the things that they most look forward to (wearing the robe, being handed their certificate, the handshake from the Chancellor). Also, the point that you seem not to be able to grasp is that large gatherings of people from all over the country and world are simply not going to be allowed to happen this summer. So it's a futile argument.

I think you keep missing the point. Students want/need some human interaction. They don't give a shiny poop about gowns and hats - they'd just like to meet each other and see the people on their course, whether that's at graduation (who cares what it looks like), or in a field meeting their fellow first years. Hopefully some of this will be possible from 8th March when schools start back in some form. Same rules will apply to Unis so if we have can have some in f2f so can Unis.

So you agree schools should remain on line too ? Because the issues facing them are exactly the same. Social distancing, lack of space, lots of humans in one place. And they both provide education.

I don't k is how many different ways to say this but schools and universities are very different and they have been given different guidance to work with. This isn't the fault of university staff.

I'm not even talking about Unis providing education f2f. Just opportunities for students to meet each other. On a small scale. In a lecture theatre (assume you have those ?). Some seat over 400, so have 40 in there. Lecturer still at home but some students together. And the government have not said you can't do this.

Utterly clueless.
This has been explained a of number times. I'm really not explaining again if you can't be bothered to try to understand why this can't work.

Yes it's tough teaching on line and at home but I have to do it to much younger students who need more support so it can be done.

We are teaching online at home. I'd much rather be on campus but I'M NOT ALLOWED!!!!!!!!!!

This is not going to go away quickly so imaginative thinking is needed.

There have been some incredibly innovative approaches to teaching and learning that have come out of this situation. At times it's been an absolute joy and quite exciting.

I think you keep missing the point. Students want/need some human interaction. They don't give a shiny poop about gowns and hats

I can tell you that they actually do care about that. They want the proper ceremony, with all the bells and whistles.

I can tell you that they actually do care about that. They want the proper ceremony, with all the bells and whistles.

I was just about to say this.
Every student I've spoken to has said they want to wait until they can do it properly.

And every student I've spoken says they'd just like something rather than nothing. So it depends who you speak to I suppose.
Not sure why the idea of using the lecture theatre was 'clueless' as that's exactly what one of my DDs Unis has done since Sept. So her lecturers must be clueless too. It's worked really well too - not one case of covid but lots of human interaction and new friends made.
Seems Unis will be online for the foreseeable future then. Students can just lump it for 9,250 a year. Bargain.

And every student I've spoken says they'd just like something rather than nothing. So it depends who you speak to I suppose.

I'd say, more than who you speak to, it depends on how many you speak to. Do you know hundreds of final year students?

@mumsneedwine

And every student I've spoken says they'd just like something rather than nothing. So it depends who you speak to I suppose. Not sure why the idea of using the lecture theatre was 'clueless' as that's exactly what one of my DDs Unis has done since Sept. So her lecturers must be clueless too. It's worked really well too - not one case of covid but lots of human interaction and new friends made. Seems Unis will be online for the foreseeable future then. Students can just lump it for 9,250 a year. Bargain.

I didn't know you worked at a university and therefore have access to lots of students and their opinions??

You seem to think I that all universities and courses are the same. They aren't.
My course is too big to fit in any of the lectures theatres which belong to my faculty while socially distanced. This means I would have to teach two or three times .... I simply don't have the time.

We have a handful of very large lecture theatres on campus but there are 400 courses fighting over them.
I can't teach from home while the students are in a lecture theatre - the technology just isn't there and it would be hard to interact with the group. So I either need to be there in person or teach via Teams. I've been told im not allowed on campus so Teams it is.

You seem to think universities aren't putting any thought into their decisions - that could not be further from the truth.
Every possible angle has been looked at and the most appropriate one has been selected.

Yes it is shit that students are missing out on the experience side of university but while we are in lockdown and in the middle of a global pandemic I don't know what we can do!

Get gazebos

For a university graduation ceremony. 4-5000 students graduating, plus their parents.

This made me laugh out loud.

And every student I've spoken says they'd just like something rather than nothing. So it depends who you speak to I suppose.

Just how many university students do you speak to in a week?

Roughly.

My fresher daughter would just like to meet some other students during her first year. Ideally before room ballots for next year take place. And also ideally some others from her course. She knows her household from last term - so 5 other students, and that’s it. There wasn’t one single in person event in her subject. Most of the others don’t use their cameras due to poor wifi or anxiety, though she is lucky enough to be able to.

It looks like her university expect to have them back next term. She’s desperate for some in person events of some kind; if this is outdoors in masks for an hour a week it’ll do. She’s just desperate that her subject at her institution don’t decide, like last term, to go further than the legal restrictions and put absolutely everything online. (She signed a contract when they were promising blended learning.) If they do then we intend to seek a legal opinion on paying full fees, as obeying the law is the right thing to do, and going beyond it to protect vulnerable staff members is understandable of course, but every single event being online so she has met absolutely no-one teaching her or on her course is not fair. Especially as the academic she has most contact with is teaching at her university from abroad (not on sabbatical or anything - just moved to holiday home as it’s a nice place to see out a pandemic, as he’s blithely explained) and claims poor wifi so doesn’t have the camera on himself!

It looks like her university expect to have them back next term. She’s desperate for some in person events of some kind; if this is outdoors in masks for an hour a week it’ll do. She’s just desperate that her subject at her institution don’t decide, like last term, to go further than the legal restrictions and put absolutely everything online. (She signed a contract when they were promising blended learning.) If they do then we intend to seek a legal opinion on paying full fees, as obeying the law is the right thing to do, and going beyond it to protect vulnerable staff members is understandable of course, but every single event being online so she has met absolutely no-one teaching her or on her course is not fair.

I would agree with some of this. The two universities I know well prioritized first years for on campus activity and made sure they had at least 3 hours on campus per week ( whether they tuned up was a different thing all together!)
We managed to offer all students 3 hours per week until we were told to go online.

Especially as the academic she has most contact with is teaching at her university from abroad (not on sabbatical or anything - just moved to holiday home as it’s a nice place to see out a pandemic, as he’s blithely explained) and claims poor wifi so doesn’t have the camera on himself!
Where you teach from is irrelevant to some extent BUT you need to make sure you have good enough wifi! And what happens if he's suddenly expected back on campus?? This obviously isn't great and is worthy of addressing with the university.

This obviously isn't great and is worthy of addressing with the university.

We were specifically told that working from abroad was not permitted.

@changi about 700 so far this week. We had an alumni on line conference to see who is willing to support next years applicants. 4 days so far and I've started to ask them about graduation, just out of interest. Most seem to just want to spend a day with their friends in any capacity they can. Maybe not representative but that's what they are telling me.
Back to work

And my DD is a 3rd year and has lots of friends who are graduating this year. They want something and I believe their Uni is planning on trying something very scaled down if possible - they do have a lot of outdoor space though.

@feimineach my DD2 did 3 weeks as a fresher on campus at the start of the year - on an empty corridor, eating meals on enforced socially distanced tables for one, basically shut up in solitary confinement with security separating any students attempting to group. This was all well beyond the guidelines at the time. She came home as all teaching is online anyway. She would love just a few weeks back this academic year to actually see a student on her course or a tutor. The whole experience has knocked her confidence.
There has been no direction yet from the government which covers rules for unis beyond this immediate lockdown period. Yet so many universities have given up on F2F activity of any kind till September when I feel they should be acting with a sense of extreme urgency to rescue these young people from their bedroom studies.
My impression is they don’t much care as long as they get their £9250. That’s how it looks anyway.
When I compare the amazing efforts made by the schools my younger children attend with that made by the universities my older ones attend there is a vast difference.
Obviously I dont really know what goes on behind the scenes and maybe these unis are fighting like mad to offer our DCs a better service....?!

I've started to ask them about graduation

How are you phrasing the question?

Based on my experience as an academic and also as the parent of a child at university, I think there's quite a lot of disparity - some universities are terrified of students dropping out or demanding fees back, and will force academics back on campus the minute they can. Some are a lot more complacent about what students will put up with. Either way, it's in no sense up to the tutors which line their institution takes, or what they personally offer: it comes from the VC and their coterie, where they see their university in the rankings and who they prioritise. Also perhaps for many, there is a concern about local reputation: if local residents see a deluge of 18-21 year old appear, there is a risk of scape goating (sometimes less justified than others) in regard to local infection rates.

What does interest me is the emphasis here on socialising and graduation ceremonies - but what about the teaching and learning? I've heard lots about students missing the social aspect of seminars, but how do we balance that with the fact that shorter seminars (because of timetable restraints on space) in masks and with no possibility of group discussions, no handouts, no sharing books) are potentially much less conducive than online classes are to productive discussion and learning at the level that UG study is meant to be all about?

I'm not saying students are wrong or silly to miss the social aspect - we all do - but it concerns me that all the focus seems to be on 'experience' rather than learning.

I'm not saying students are wrong or silly to miss the social aspect - we all do - but it concerns me that all the focus seems to be on 'experience' rather than learning.

If I gave that impression it was unintentional. It’s not the case. Discussion with peers is part of learning. Learning completely alone is incredibly isolating and not conducive to learning well.

She finds is unfair that those prioritising socialising broke rules by attending parties and got to know others (though in many cases also got fines) and also brought covid back to their household, where she ended up in quarantine twice last term. Those who have respected rules like her were given no legal outlet to meet others. Her welfare advisor said ‘subscribe to Netflix’ (she’s not at uni to watch TV, and anyway her eyes were strained after studying and learning on screens all day), and ‘arrange to meet individual students from other households for a socially distanced walk’ (how when she doesn’t know them to invite them?!).

I don’t blame academics, by the way, though I do think the one abroad should use his camera and keep quiet to students about his location. It’s a decision higher up, as others have said, and there is extreme variability in approaches. Personally I think universities/colleges/department making blanket rules that are stricter than the law should be forced to lower fees for those students. My daughter is really hardworking, kind and thoughtful, is there to learn not to party, and no physical or mental health problems, yet she really struggled with isolation, loneliness and despair by the end of last term. Which is why I’m so serious about seeking legal opinion if she’s encouraged to return but then left so starkly isolated again next term.

I would also like to see compassion from university staff for lonely freshers, rather than the ‘buy Netflix and toughen up’ stance. Individuals thinking creatively about what they could do rather than just focussing on what they can’t, would help - eg other departments got small groups of students together for meet ups each week, back when it was rule of 6.

Obviously I dont really know what goes on behind the scenes and maybe these unis are fighting like mad to offer our DCs a better service....?!

I am literally working myself into the ground making sure my students have a positive experience.

@TheMerrickBoy - the social aspect of University is extremely important to me. If you talk to people about their university experience, how many of them tell you about the lectures they attended? University is an EXPERIENCE and not ALL about learning. Otherwise DC can sign up for an open university degree right?

Of course one should aim to get the best degree you can- but for me it is their last chance to be carefree before embarking on the career ladder and it is perfectly OK to expect to enjoy it.

[quote GaribaldiGirl]@feimineach my DD2 did 3 weeks as a fresher on campus at the start of the year - on an empty corridor, eating meals on enforced socially distanced tables for one, basically shut up in solitary confinement with security separating any students attempting to group. This was all well beyond the guidelines at the time. She came home as all teaching is online anyway. She would love just a few weeks back this academic year to actually see a student on her course or a tutor. The whole experience has knocked her confidence.
There has been no direction yet from the government which covers rules for unis beyond this immediate lockdown period. Yet so many universities have given up on F2F activity of any kind till September when I feel they should be acting with a sense of extreme urgency to rescue these young people from their bedroom studies.
My impression is they don’t much care as long as they get their £9250. That’s how it looks anyway.
When I compare the amazing efforts made by the schools my younger children attend with that made by the universities my older ones attend there is a vast difference.
Obviously I dont really know what goes on behind the scenes and maybe these unis are fighting like mad to offer our DCs a better service....?![/quote]
I agree with a lot of that. Even back in October, before the lockdown, my son's Uni weren't doing F2F - none of his lecturers were even on campus. There was NOTHING officially instructed by the govt for them to be at home and not doing F2F teaching - that was a decision made by the Uni and their teaching staff only. And yes, that was despite promises as late as Mid September on their website that they'd be doing "blended" learning. As others have said, there could well be some legal challenges against some Unis for lying to their students to get them to sign up to course and uni accommodation.

[quote chopc]@TheMerrickBoy - the social aspect of University is extremely important to me. If you talk to people about their university experience, how many of them tell you about the lectures they attended? University is an EXPERIENCE and not ALL about learning. Otherwise DC can sign up for an open university degree right?

Of course one should aim to get the best degree you can- but for me it is their last chance to be carefree before embarking on the career ladder and it is perfectly OK to expect to enjoy it. [/quote]
Oh of course - and I'm very sad for students (including my kid) who aren't getting it. It's just difficult to juggle trying to offer meaningful teaching and also trying to make it a social experience, especially when for many it might be the only they get. And in my experience, also, students don't really look to their tutors for the social stuff - or certainly didn't use to - so it's hard to think of stuff they'll want and welcome, rather than stuff that will just seem lame and unenticing, if that makes sense?

And yes, of course we all remember much more about university than the lectures we attended - but then at the moment, we're kind of all in the same boat about that aren't we? I'd hoped to have better memories of Christmas 2020, but there's no way and no body that could really give me that, is there?

Also, yes, if you wanted to study entirely alone and with intermittent contact with tutors who probably have other full time jobs, there's the OU - but if you want more experience than learning, a holiday is also cheaper than a degree.

It's fees, really, innit. Nobody's ever been clear about what they're for and what you're supposed to get for them - is it the chance of a better paying job? An enriched mind? Knowledge? Cultural capital? A really nice time? Students don't know, governments don't know, we don't know, really.