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Higher education

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DS started uni last september, i think he should leave and start at a different uni sept

137 replies

blueskyblues11111 · 10/02/2021 11:55

DS is at a non RG uni, and After this year of covid stop / starting / isolating at uni plus the fact the DS got much better A’level results than he was predicted . I feel he should reapply to a RG uni to re start he uni course of economics this September . Aibu to feel like this ,,?

i have spoken to DS about this possible option , but he says he wants to stay where he is ,,,

I know I really need to stop dwelling on this option but it’s hard when 1st years have had such a tricky start to their uni life ....

BTW , i know i probably ABU :)

OP posts:
Bluesername · 11/02/2021 10:04

He is happy where he is and doesn't want to move. End of story

twelly · 11/02/2021 10:08

The student will ultimately make their own decision. I believe that restarting given the students grades, given the circumstances of this academic year and given the fact that employment prospects/ future earning will be impacted by choice. His choice of course is significant as there is a vast difference between universities in the the level and content and this does make a difference to future prospects.

Seeline · 11/02/2021 10:12

@twelly

Neither of us know the student concerned , I believe that given the information presented I would advice to restart . All parents want to go the best for their children and given this academic year has been so different now more than ever changing university if there is a place would be the best option.
The information presented?

What that Mummy doesn't think her son's uni is posh enough?

The only other info is that the adult concerned is happy where he is.

We don't know what his A level results actually were, where he is studying, how well he is doing, what his experience of this year has been (for what it's worth my 1st year uni son has had a great year with good teaching, some face-to-face, site visits and live lectures), what his specific interests are within the field of economics or what his future plans are.

How can you possibly say categorically that the best thing would be to move?

chillybeans · 11/02/2021 10:15

@Bluesername

I completely agree!

twelly · 11/02/2021 10:24

I agree discussion is required and we do not have the full facts, however, I still believe restarting is a viable option and not one to be dismissed without discussion. Yes I am very well qualified to make these comments. Careers advice is a discussion and yes parents are entitled to offer opinions.

TheJerkStore · 11/02/2021 10:50

I am a qualified careers adviser and I now train and teach careers advisers.
At university level we would not be involving parents in any discussions full stop.

School based careers advisers may work with parents but we tend to avoid getting them involved too much in careers discussions because it can be detrimental to the process.

This is careers advice 101..... basic stuff.

twelly · 11/02/2021 11:02

That might be the case but students do not live in a vacuum - their parents are part of their support structure and know them. Careers advisors are a valuable resource but there are not the only source of information or advice. Tutors, both at university and in their school/previous college, parents, friends and many others are also able to offer advice.

Standrewsschool · 11/02/2021 11:13

@Bluesername

He is happy where he is and doesn't want to move. End of story
Sums up what I was about to post.

In these turbulent times, stability is an important factor. He seems to have achieved this at his current university.

As parents, we all want the best for our dc. Before he went, I’m sure you were hoping that he would be happy, make friends and be settled in his new uni life. He seems to have achieved this.

Incidently, have you always had these feelings, or has something suddenly sparked your desire for a RG/Loughborough university?

Standrewsschool · 11/02/2021 11:15

“ What that Mummy doesn't think her son's uni is posh enough?”

Sorry, reading that did make me giggle.

Phphion · 11/02/2021 11:42

The IFS report does not present the data for 2017. It is not an annual statistical bulletin, it is an economic model using linked and pooled administrative data.

Overall, graduates from RG universities earn more. That doesn't mean that they all earn more than any graduate from a non RG university or that there are not differences between the average salaries achieved by graduates from different subjects and different universities. It is an overall trend.

For economics particularly, it is also a trend driven by a few universities whose graduate salaries bring up the average for the RG group as a whole. The fact that economics graduates from LSE earn on average a zillion pounds, confers no special status on the graduates of Liverpool.

For economics graduates, broadly the trends can be explained by a process of cumulative advantage.

On average, economics students at RG universities (or generally higher ranked ones) enter HE with higher A Level grades (including A Levels in maths), they also have various other background characteristics that have been shown to correlate with successful graduate outcomes. This can be seen in some RG universities more than others.

Once at university, they gain further advantage due to the content of their courses and due to the targeting of certain universities by the highest paying and most prestigious employers.

The main high paying areas where economics graduates have an advantage over graduates generally are those that involve econometrics and other high level mathematical modelling and finance and in particular financial modelling. Generally speaking the highest ranked universities have the most mathematical economics courses, so their graduates are the most likely to have the necessary skills for these kinds of jobs. This is not exclusively the case. There are some universities that specialise in financial economics but are not very maths heavy and their graduates on average command higher salaries than those from universities that are considered generally better for economics as a whole because their average salaries are brought down by people choosing to go into lower paid areas of economics.

The prestige and targeting by employers is an additional layer and helps even those with a less mathematical focus. On average, the High Flyers Top 100 Employers target just 24 of over 140 universities. For investment banks and consultancy firms where a lot of the highest earning economics graduates are found, this figure is just 14. For top banking and finance employers generally, it is 21. These employers invest a disproportionate amount of their recruitment resources in attracting graduates from their target universities, offering all kinds of opportunities and events to build their brand amongst students from the universities they think highly of and recruit the most students from.

But this is largely irrelevant to the question of whether Loughborough is preferable to (what I assume is) Northumbria for economics, even just based on salaries.

It is actually very difficult to compare the two because Northumbria (or Sunderland and Teesside) do not have enough economics graduates to appear in the LEO linked career earnings data. I assume it must be a relatively recently established course. Either that or it is actually designated as a business course rather than an economics course.

Based on the LEO data (which is quite old and statistically unreliable due to the small numbers involved), in 2017 Loughborough economics graduates who were five years post graduation had a median salary of £35,000 (low high range £28,700 to £43,900). This put it at 24th out of 60 in the rankings of economics graduates by median salary. It's not in the most elite group where median salaries are around £50K, but it's good. There is no data for any university that would match the criteria of non-RG university in the North East.

The best comparison that could include a NE university is looking at business, rather than economics. For business graduates the figures were:

Loughborough - Median £41,400 (£31,600 - £51,600) 6th / 121
Northumbria - Median £25,600 (£19,300 - £34,100) 59th
Sunderland - Median £23,600 (£18,100 - £30,600) 84th
Teesside - Median £22,100 (£17,300 - £27,990) 102nd

The numbers have to be taken with an enormous pinch of salt as they are based on the salaries of between 170 and 505 graduates from a single graduating year.

So in terms of salary Loughborough does have quite an advantage and it keeps that advantage even when you control for various background characteristics like parental occupation and some prior attainment.

Whether such salary figures constitute a good reason to move universities is a different matter again. If you care very much about getting the very highest salary you possibly can given the choices available, then it would appear that going to Loughborough might give you a bit of help in this. If you care about anything else, such as university experience, the type of job or employer you want, working conditions and hours, social value, and so on, meh, very few economists starve.

TheJerkStore · 11/02/2021 12:08

@twelly

That might be the case but students do not live in a vacuum - their parents are part of their support structure and know them. Careers advisors are a valuable resource but there are not the only source of information or advice. Tutors, both at university and in their school/previous college, parents, friends and many others are also able to offer advice.
Well of course but that's not what was being discussed.
twelly · 11/02/2021 12:21

I think there seems to a a view that careers advisers alone are able to offer the “best advice” and that they are homogeneous. This is clearly not the case.

TheJerkStore · 11/02/2021 12:26

Tutors, both at university and in their school/previous college, parents, friends and many others are also able to offer advice.

Not to mention that these people aren't often the best people to offer careers advice
You just have to see the amount of misinformation on this thread to understand that!

They influence decisions of course but they aren't always best place to act as careers advisers. Your training will have taught you that though surely......?

TheJerkStore · 11/02/2021 12:29

@twelly

I think there seems to a a view that careers advisers alone are able to offer the “best advice” and that they are homogeneous. This is clearly not the case.
A fully qualified careers adviser is best placed of offer careers advice though.

Would you suggest an English teacher isn't the best person of teach English? Or a financial adviser not being the best person to offer financial advice.

Based on this post there is zero chance you're a careers adviser. You probably think it's a job that can be done by anyone 🙄

withmycoffee · 11/02/2021 12:41

@twelly

Of course neither of us know the student concerned so we are both unable to say with any certainty what is best
Yet you are still asserting what is the 'best option'. Hmm
PresentingPercy · 11/02/2021 13:15

@Phphion
That was a very illuminating post. Thanks a lot. I don’t think there is research that says, for Economics, you are just as well off going to a lesser level of university. I do believe family background and ambition make a difference and some employers definitely target some universities. If it’s not a maths oriented economics degree I’m sure destinations are affected. Staying local for a job will also make a huge difference to salary. I note the salaries for business students from a variety of universities too. It would be difficult to argue that Bath university business students would expect to start on more than the salaries earned in the NE. Newcastle students are far more likely to be from London and the SE where it’s a popular university.

I do know Newcastle is RG. That’s why I said he should stay put if it’s Newcastle! I cannot see how anyone would think I didn’t know the difference between Newcastle and the other universities in the area.

Jackie2022 · 11/02/2021 13:17

It’s a dumb reason to completely restart his course. Come on now.

He could consider transferring directly into second year, if he wants to that is. Chances are he’s settled and likes his new friends though.

Jackie2022 · 11/02/2021 13:19

Most RG unis have strict requirements for 2nd year direct entry though. For the most part the course structure has to be similar across both unis for first year

Jackie2022 · 11/02/2021 13:23

And the student would need to meet the first year entry requirements of the RG university, regardless of how well the did during first year at the current university

PresentingPercy · 11/02/2021 13:33

I think he does meet Loughborough. Hence the question.

I too have said many students value being around friends and staying local and are not bothered about income. Some economics grads don’t earn much in depressed areas. But it’s truly horses for courses.

My post above had a mistake in it. Essentially Bath Business grads would expect to earn more than the business grad salaries quoted for the NE universities. However where your job is based is important.

JunoTurner · 11/02/2021 13:39

I do know Newcastle is RG. That’s why I said he should stay put if it’s Newcastle! I cannot see how anyone would think I didn’t know the difference between Newcastle and the other universities in the area

Nice try at backtracking @PresentingPercy Wink

if you knew it was RG why would you assume he was at Newcastle when the OP said he’s not at a RG university? Or why didn’t you ask her if she mistakenly thought it wasn’t? Or why didn’t you specify he should stay where he was “because it’s a RG university”?

As for @twelly ‘s advice to move because this year was so disrupted - well on that reasoning that advice could apply to all 1st years as they all had disrupted-by-Covid years. If even 25% try and restart elsewhere it’ll be carnage.

But bottom line, the young man doesn’t want to move. So a lot of this advice is redundant - it would be relevant if the OP was doing the degree, but she’s not.

TheJerkStore · 11/02/2021 13:58

As for @twelly ‘s advice to move because this year was so disrupted - well on that reasoning that advice could apply to all 1st years as they all had disrupted-by-Covid years. If even 25% try and restart elsewhere it’ll be carnage.

Exactly. For all we know he may have had a perfectly good academic experience anyway!

Yes this year has been disrupted but that's true for all years and all courses. However, that doesn't necessarily mean a poor experience with regards teaching and learning.

twelly · 11/02/2021 15:30

The context could apply to everyone of course but doesn’t as only the op raised the possibility of her son changing university and course. Earning potential Is higher from certain universities, although that should not be the only factor when making university choices in my opinion, clearly the opportunities are likely to be greater.

JunoTurner · 11/02/2021 16:21

But your reasoning isn’t tailored to the OP’s son twelly. You’re not even taking his wishes into concern.

And I agree, earning potential should not be the only factor when making university choices.

Call me ridiculous, but where one wants to go, as opposed to where one’s mother wants one to go should be another factor in my view.

twelly · 11/02/2021 16:59

Absolutely agree it is the student’s choice that does not mean dismissing the idea of changing course and university without even a discussion if the pros and cons.

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