Studying in Europe.

[SusannaSpider]

Has Brexit completely scuppered the option of studying at a university in Europe? DD is very interested in studying in The Netherlands, specifically Rotterdam. Does anyone have any advice to offer?

For a year a year as part of a UK Uni course, or as a stand-alone degree in Rotterdam?

A stand alone degree.

Hi

My DD applied to study in The Netherlands and was all set to study Politics in The Hague.

She has made a couple of videos about applying and what happen to prevent her from taking up her place. They might be of use to your DD. If she has any questions, feel free to ask away.

My dd is also interested in studying in Delft, she is British but does have a Dutch passport as well. Have you tried contacting the university directly?

She'll have to pay international fees. Well, you will! Plus maintenance.

And she'll need to get a student visa.

Thank you for the replies, I expected tumbleweed! Thank you for the video Oldowl I'll send her the link.

DD is only just choosing her A-level options atm, hence her looking at unis to work out the best subject choices.
The one course that really appeals is in Rotterdam. The fees oddly seem to be cheaper than the UK and accomodation similar, but obviously extra travel costs and would she be able to work etc. It's an Erasmus uni, but obviously that's gone for us now.

She hasn't tried to contact directly, we were just letting the dust settle from Brexit first, as everything just seems so uncertain.

You would not get the loan though for a university in The Netherlands. Few of their universities are world class so what advantage to they have? Little. The loan may never be repaid here so it’s inevitably cheaper for the vast majority to study here. You need to look at how finance will work when making decisions. Unless you are international in both countries of course.

A friends DS is at Maastricht for an MA but it’s not world class in his field. It’s well down in world rankings. It’s cheap for the year at the moment but it’s not better than RGs here.

Here are my thoughts. Don't hold me to any of this because I haven't looked it up recently!

Fees: much cheaper than the UK. But I'm not sure you'd be eligible for grants or loans from anywhere.
Housing: possibly cheaper depending on city, but she'd possibly end up in more expensive accommodation because it's hard to get a house share as a foreign student. The universities are building a lot of more British-style dorm blocks to attract foreigners though, so that might not be a problem.
Cost of living is relatively high, including food and health insurance, but not undoable.
Working: more student visas let you work a few hours a week and almost all students do. Dutch course work loads assume all students have jobs. In Amsterdam, many shop and restaurant workers don't actually speak Dutch anymore, but it might be more of a problem in Rotterdam. Plus, all those jobs have gone this year.
Erasmus: if she's registered on an EU course, I think she will have access to the Erasmus scheme to go elsewhere in Europe. However, you'd have to look at visas. Indian acquaintances have certainly managed it.
Course quality: normally pretty ok. The courses are quite rigid, but teaching is alright and focused on making students employable. It's not Oxbridge levels, but it's certainly comparable to lower ranking redbricks. The courses don't normally allow students to fail and don't particularly push bright students, but they're quite ok.
Bsc/MSc: In NL a BSc/Ba isn't worth much, and will repeat a lot of A-level stuff. You're expected to do a masters, which is an extra 2 years. There aren't undergrad masters like in the UK. SO you're committing to at least 5 years of study.

Thanks lots of interesting points to consider. I'm not interested in the obsession with RG unis that Mumsnet seems to have.
Accomodation is provided for 3yrs, not the cheapest, but comparable with UK student complexes. We know food costs as we've self catered there (and tbh food is going up in the UK now anyway), we already pay private health insurance. She is learning Dutch, but I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't speak at least basic English there (it's quite embarrassing, how good they are!).

She wants to teach and would be coming back for a PGSE (she has looked and the Dutch qualification is perfectly acceptable) the Dutch course gives her the option to teach over there, which she is really keen on. She is also really keen on the syllabus of the course, it's History but a different slant to UK universities that she has looked at and the first one to really click with her.

Interesting to know about the expectation of an MA in The Netherlands though.

I'm not a huge fan of Rotterdam as somewhere to live, but then again I'm not her.

Oh and someone mentioned advantages...Living and studying in a different culture is a huge advantage. We aren't looking for a world beating university - I would imagine plenty in the UK wouldn't fall into that category.
Loans could be an issue though, although the loan system is different where we are (I don't want to out myself or my location).

Hmm...lots to think about.

And thank you for those taking time to post lengthy replies.

Erasmus is pie in the Sky for a y10 student. It will be replaced but hardly likely to cover 3/5 years of university study in The Netherlands. It’s not remotely necessary for any new system to do that.

There are far more and better universities here but are you actually going to pay the fees? If you are, the world is your oyster. If you are not, and getting the loan, the uk offers better value.

There are few world leading Dutch universities and the uk easily leads the way. RG would mostly be better. Rotterdam just isn’t comparable with Edinburgh or UCL. Lots of the best universities in the EU are technology universities. Two of the top 3 in The Netherlands are followed by Leiden. Amsterdam is ranked highly. Generally our world ranked universities offer all subjects (except Imperial). I cannot see any advantage in studying in The Netherlands over studying here unless you are Dutch!

The reason RG universities are popular is because their alumni actually earn more down the line than grads from other universities. If you are not bothered about going to the best university, so be it. What happens if she changes her mind and wants another more competitive career? Not going to the best she can is doing her a disservice for History. Obviously she’s not aiming for a top job but I think ruling out every university here which are demonstrably better is being ultra picky. RG with a few exceptions, are all better for History than non RG. Even schools might prefer a History grad from Durham over one from Rotterdam who presumably has not studied uk history in any depth.

She's year 11.
We can pay the fees, but were thinking of a loan for fees and paying for everything else ourselves. We can rethink this though.

As per my reply we aren't looking at RG (and probably not world beating either) universities in the UK either (with the exception of Newcastle, which is on her list), her grades are good, but she is just looking for a good fit rather than prestige.

The Netherlands, because she is learning Dutch and we already know the country. I'm taking a look at Leiden and Amsterdam too ( I'd actually prefer them). So not really looking at any other countries.

Atm, she is just looking so she knows what A levels to choose, nothing is set in stone. As a parent I'd prefer her closer to home, but obviously I'm not going to clip her wings.

This is what ucas say about applying for a PGCE to teach in England.

Do you know what the fees would be post Brexit for international students?

Lots of uk universities have a year abroad as part of the course. Have you looked at this possibility? Do universities have links with Dutch universities where this might be possible. I would look at the universities you have now mentioned but ucas is clear about academic qualifications for a PGCE for teaching in England.

but were thinking of a loan for fees and paying for everything else ourselves. We can rethink this though.

She won't get a fee loan though as an international student

Dutch universities are ranked very high University Rankings. In THE World Rankings 2021, Erasmus Rotterdam was ranked 72, a lot higher than Durham, Warwick, Bristol, Leeds etc.

Accommodation was DD's issue. Most Dutch students tend to live at home and travel in daily to university, so halls of residence provided by the university are rare. You have to use housing agencies or rent privately. Most rooms come empty, so you have to buy a bed, desk etc when you arrive and then sell it on when you leave.

There is a high drop out rate at Dutch universities. Home fees are 1k in the first year and 2k in the 2nd and 3rd. So if you are not enjoying your course it is not an expensive decision to drop out and chose a new course. EU students can get a 0% loan for this 5K which must be paid back over 15 years.

There are 2 semesters at most Dutch universities, 1st September - 1st Feb. You have a weekend break, then 4th Feb -end of June. You get 2 weeks off at Christmas and no Easter break, just 4 bank holidays, Kings Day etc. You get lots of teaching time for your money!

Exams are every 6 weeks, so you have to keep on top of work, but it means you don't have heavily weighted final exams. It is more continuous assessment.

Some universities offer 'Student for the Day' opportunities. DD flew over and spent the day at Leiden university. It was just a regular university day, so she went to a couple of lectures and had a dept tour, chatted with students over lunch etc. The flight from where we live was only 50 minutes (and £18).

Also as a young teacher here she will barely pay fees back. If she went part time after having children her fee repayment would quite possibly be £0. So you need to compare realistic scenarios. What will fees be in The Netherlands vs fee loans here? Why not save your money for a house deposit.

Won't PGCE provider want applicants with British History degrees? History in the Nat curriculum is obviously from the British perspective, whereas a History at a Dutch uni would presumably be largely focussed on Dutch history.

There is a high drop out rate at Dutch universities. Home fees are 1k in the first year and 2k in the 2nd and 3rd. So if you are not enjoying your course it is not an expensive decision to drop out and chose a new course. EU students can get a 0% loan for this 5K which must be paid back over 15 years.*

Errrr Brexit means she won't be a Home student

Obviously league tables differ then. Rotterdam was nowhere in the league table I looked at and the uk universities were much more highly regarded. The big issue is ucas though. She won’t be qualified for the PGCE course. She won’t get a loan.

Yes, titchy. That’s exactly what they want. England teaching even excludes Scottish degrees. England and Wales universities only.