Studying in Europe.

[SusannaSpider]

Has Brexit completely scuppered the option of studying at a university in Europe? DD is very interested in studying in The Netherlands, specifically Rotterdam. Does anyone have any advice to offer?

[StColumbofNavron]

Though looking at DC’s history curriculum I didn’t cover many of those topics in my degree (broadly recently) because most are modular and allow for choice/interest and a differing perspective perhaps would be seen favourably as bringing different methods and practices to the table.

It sounds like you are in a position to support her whatever comes of the new UK scheme/loan situation and she seems very keen on the course and the opportunity to live in the Netherlands so I would say it sounds like a good move. If a UK-centric qualification becomes necessary she could always look at a postgrad degree. Many (history) teachers I know undertake Masters as a sort of CPD anyway.

[SusannaSpider]

Her loan will automatically be repaid after 2yrs if she returns home to teach, where we live. But if she doesn't get a loan that's kind of irrelevant.
You can take a PGCE with international qualifications, that's the one thing we do know (we know 2 international teachers who have done that). Her school actually has quite a few teachers who were educated in other countries.
Fees are £6700. The degree is international history, with some Dutch history, taught in English.

[dreamingbohemian]

Has she looked at Queen Mary in London? They have an International History BA with a year abroad.

I think it's a great idea but financially it doesn't necessarily make sense. I would do a BA in international history in the UK so you can get the student loan and then think about doing a one-year MA in the Netherlands.

It's a rapidly growing field so there may be a few more programmes available in the UK in a couple years as well.

[SusannaSpider]

Dutch universities are ranked very high University Rankings. In THE World Rankings 2021, Erasmus Rotterdam was ranked 72, a lot higher than Durham, Warwick, Bristol, Leeds etc.

Thanks, that is interesting.

[SusannaSpider]

Yes, titchy. That’s exactly what they want. England teaching even excludes Scottish degrees. England and Wales universities only.

That's not true. My Scottish niece took a PGCE in England 🤷 and as previously mentioned we know two international teachers who took PGCEs in England.

[SusannaSpider]

Thank you to the person who mentioned Queen Mary, DD will take a look.

[stodgystollen]

Rotterdam is one of the best cities to live in as a student, even if it's a bit ugly. It's really young and vibrant with a lot of immigrants and the best food and nightclubs in NL. It's a bit better connected to cool places like Antwerp, Brussels and Paris too.

Leiden is the more traditional one for arts students I think (I'm a scientist so I'm not sure). Somewhere else worth looking is University College Utrecht. It was set up as a European competitor to undercut the American liberal arts colleges and offers a decent all round English education on a college campus with lots of internationals. Utrecht is really nice too, but has a bit less buzz.

There's much less snobbery between universities in NL (still a bit though). The UK university and graduate job system is really toxic and self-serving. If she gets decent GPA from a Dutch course (she'll still have to work hard for it) it avoids a lot of that rubbish. I think Dutch courses probably have a more direct link between hours worked and grades because you get more lectures and more frequent feedback. There's more handholding to some extent.

I know you're not bothered about ranking but I would highlight one thing. Is the history degree English medium or Dutch medium with a lot of English modules? That's really important. If its English medium, the target clientele are international students so the level of English of her class mates may not be that high (possibly lower than Dutch average). I'm not saying that it's necessarily a degree factory, but there is the possibility that it might be.

Btw, it might be less for students, but my health insurance is €130 a month with a €600 co-pay. It's mandatory if she lives there. I think it's a bit more than top up insurance in the UK. Not bank breaking, but worth factoring in. One the flip side, you get massively reduced train travel as a student.

[Goingtothebudgies]

It seems that the OP has been told that the course will be recognised for PGCE purposes. As one would expect.
The main issue I imagine will be not being able to get a loan for living costs. But it seems the parents are expecting to pay for those anyway.
Would she be able to take the PGCE after a BA in the Netherlands, or would they expect an MA, OP?
I fully understand the wish to escape Brexshit UK and have a few years in a highly international environment.

[Goingtothebudgies]

Looking at international fees in the Netherlands, they're not far off home fees in England. But you wouldn't get a loan.

[Goingtothebudgies]

UCAS accepts "a recognised equivalent qualification". I'd expect that to include most university degrees in the relevant subject. Why wouldn't it?

[PresentingPercy]

Maybe because the history syllabus isn’t the same in The Netherlands as is taught in schools here? However extra syllabus training is offered. Obviously for teaching in the Netherlands it would be excellent but here you are up against uk history grads in a non shortage subject.

[redsquirrelfan]

There's much less snobbery between universities in NL (still a bit though). The UK university and graduate job system is really toxic and self-serving. If she gets decent GPA from a Dutch course (she'll still have to work hard for it) it avoids a lot of that rubbish

I agree. It sidesteps the UK "prestige" thing neatly - a bit like foreigners can sidestep the UK "class" system (or at least people can't place them on accent or what school they went to).

I know Leiden is a very good university but I think most people wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't care. Also, PGCE providers don't care about what uni you went to, they care if you have a genuine interest in, and aptitude for, teaching.

[StColumbofNavron]

@PresentingPercy

Maybe because the history syllabus isn’t the same in The Netherlands as is taught in schools here? However extra syllabus training is offered. Obviously for teaching in the Netherlands it would be excellent but here you are up against uk history grads in a non shortage subject.

But even with a UK history degree, it is entirely possible not to study the things that are on the school curriculum - I’d say out of my 6 close uni friends (within the last 5 years) perhaps two of us covered anything on the National Curriculum in any relevant way. Most history teachers teach some Geography and RE too without having studied them at all.

[stodgystollen]

Sorry to keep coming back, but one final thing to consider that no one else has spotted. Make sure she has a back up plan that isn't a PGCE and don't close too many doors in case she meets a nice Dutch/American/Chinese boy/girl while she's there! My life plans totally changed between 18 and 22, partly because of now DH, and I wouldn't count on her still wanting to come back to post-Brexit UK in five years time. She'll be a very different person then, whatever university she goes to.

[SusannaSpider]

Thank you.

Stodgystollen she was attracted by the course qualifying her to teach in the NL, in case she decided to stay. We had been thinking of moving there to avoid Brexit, but couldn't get our lives in order quick enough. Thank you for the student perspective of Rotterdam, it was a different perspective to the one I had, we tend to just pass through after coming off the ferry. And health insurance, another thing to add to the list.

Goingtothebudgies

Yes, I think escaping Brexshit is an element to it, she feels so very let down by the whole thing. Not having a vote, but being very affected by it.

PresentingPercy I really don't think history teachers teach the exact era that they covered in their degree. It's not even possible, so many different school syllabuses and so many degrees connected to history. My DD's history teacher has a degree in archaeology.

[SusannaSpider]

Is the history degree English medium or Dutch medium with a lot of English modules? That's really important. If its English medium, the target clientele are international students so the level of English of her class mates may not be that high (possibly lower than Dutch average). I'm not saying that it's necessarily a degree factory, but there is the possibility that it might be.

The course is taught in English, but the part of it that qualifies the students to teach to a certain level is taught in Dutch (unsurprisingly). They do seem to be geared towards international students.

[PresentingPercy]

Few decent history degrees in the uk are just one era. Core subjects are wider. It is clear that if a degree syllabus does not fit, PGCE applicants can be asked to do extra modules. We also have a national curriculum so there’s not huge variation between schools. However students should do what they want and for teaching I suspect, sadly, no one cares too much.

[Goingtothebudgies]

A historian should be capable of reading up on and then teaching the English curriculum. Or would that be deemed to be above and beyond?

[Goingtothebudgies]

I mean the English history curriculum, obv.

[StColumbofNavron]

Again, history teachers manage to teach Geography in some schools and RE (it does sometimes work the other way too). Up to A Level history teaching should not be beyond any history graduate (assuming that they have the skills to teach). Content can be learnt.

[SusannaSpider]

Content can be learnt

I would imagine content frequently has to be learnt. History may be always be history, but context changes over time. I very much doubt there are many experienced teachers who are only teaching the content that they learnt at Uni. I can't believe anyone would even think this is the case. Many teachers teach more than one subject or variations of their degree subject.

[Goingtothebudgies]

When I did A'level history at a private school, the 2 history teachers often didn't show up to the lessons, or showed up 20 minutes late. They then dictated, verbatim, their handwritten notes from their university degrees (which would have been from 30 years earlier). Their only response, if you did an essay, was to put a tick at the bottom. We were supposedly studying all the Tudors, but they decided to cut Elizabeth I, on the basis that we could probably get through the exam paper without her. Hopefully, it's less easy to get away with that attitude these days...

[SusannaSpider]

Goingtothebudgies

We had one who frequently made us add up the numbers in the phone book. Looking back as an adult, I'm fairly sure he often wasn't sober either. And I had to teach myself biology O' level, because our teacher was just appalling.

Whilst I know the OFSTED checks can be soul destroying for teachers, opting for no checks at all would send us back to those times. But that's heading off topic for this thread.