A'level choice - ML / biology

[Premiumm]

DD plans to take French, Spanish and biology. She's interested in teaching languages. Does biology add anything to the mix? She refuses to consider history or English, despite being good at them and a reader. Because she enjoys biology.

If she wants to study MFL at university then she should definitely keep two MFL A Levels; it shows interest and commitment. I know Cambridge certainly like their candidates to have two. I think English Lit would probably be a better fit than Biology but if she’s interested in Biology she should do it as she’s more likely to get a better grade. Certainly I don’t think the top universities (ones you listed) would have a problem with it as the 2 MFL A levels show a clear bias.

I'd be surprised if any universities that don't offer essay writing guidance. The conventions expected at degree level are different to those at A level.
Universities will teach about referencing and about structure etc because they know they are asking for a different level.

Most Cambridge colleges ask for essays to be sent in as part of the application process. And according to someone on MN whose daughter is doing ML there, they put far more emphasis on studying the literature (essays based) than the language. But DD's risk to take.

Surely tho OP there is more of a risk in doing a subject she doesn't enjoy and therefore will achieve less well in?

The key thing if you apply to Cambridge is that you need to be looking at AAA minimum as far as I am aware. It's not easy to get an A grade at A level and it's a lot more likely if you love the subject.

She’ll have to do essays in A Level French and Spanish so won’t that suffice?

The loving it thing is a good point, definitely. Though certainly no guarantee she'd get an A in biology.

The essays DD had to write for MFL A level were a very different beast from those she wrote in English - far shorter, and marked half on grammar rather than essay content and structure.

My DS in year 13 has applied to do Spanish and French this year (French will be ab initio). He has 4 offers and an interview pending. Three at Russell Group unis but not Oxbridge level. He is doing Spanish, Eng Lang & Music for A level. His experience is that languages as a Uni subject is generally under subscribed and so they won't be too bothered about the other A level subjects. English language might be a more useful subject technically but she should go with what she likes best.

@ Premiumm, Cambridge (Modern and Medieval Languages), for one, has two written entrance test exercises. One asks for writing in a foreign language (40 mins). The other for a 'Discursive response in English' (20 mins). They teach writing, as at other universities.

For example, my daughter had to completely overhaul her writing style at Cambridge. You could argue that she is still grappling with it. She is regarded as a better thinker than a writer, even in her Masters year there now!

One common third or fourth A Level is actually Maths. Many have it even though they are reading Modern Languages, History or English Lit. It's regarded as a strength.

Science graduate here (undergrad and postgrad) definitely had to write science essays and literature reviews! Only difference was the referencing system for science compared to English.

A stem subject is very useful and opens up more course options than purely having languages with another arts she is doing 2 of those already. I also didn't have chemistry A level and still got accepted to one of the top universities as you put it OP (St Andrews chose not to go was too posh for me!)

Both Oxford and Cambridge spell out what they want to see in terms of the submitted essay with regard to applications. However, I do not think MFL essays are what they want. Science for the third A level probably means DD will have to write a special essay paying attention to precisely what they ask for. Her school should advise. I am not sure they want extracts from an EPQ either. Hoeever, the only advice is to look up the precise requirements and not take "advice" from MN posters who have never had a DC apply to Oxbridge.

Both Oxford and Cambridge are literature heavy courses. This is why, until very recently, they actually recommended English Lit was a good combination with the MFLs. For very obvious reasons, Oxford still list "helpful" A Levels which include English Lit, History, Philosophy and a few others. They do make it clear that science as a third A level is no barrier but if your essay and reading/research skills are not a good as others, you are inevitably in a less good position than someone who eats essays for breakfast. English Language is not as good as Literature. MFLs at Oxbridge are about literature.

RG universities are always under subscribed for MFL but lots of the top universities do not offer French ab initio. However they are all desperately trying to get more students and some schools do not allow more than one language at GCSE and this limits A level choices to one MFL. So the universities now teach lots more ab initio.

If students at Oxbridge needed special sessions to help them writing essays, I think they might feel depressed if the vast majority did not.

Scottishskifun: We are talking about essays at A Level. For submission to Oxbridge. Not essays when you are on the degree. A level Biology on its own does not open up many degrees if the DD's focus is MFL.

I find it a bit odd that people think that if you are doing sciences you can't write an essay.

My ds is doing history A level among others and he says the person predicted an A* in his group is doing two science A levels alongside. She gets to the point in her essays without waffling.

I did Law with French off French Maths and Physics A Levels.

The French component in final year had what were effectively history essays (in English) which was a bit of a shock after 7 years without studying history (didn't do GCSE). I could have chosen something literature based but didn't like the texts when I got the options list so plumped from French Constitutional History for the 3rd time...

I'd imagine the pure linguists had to do both literature and history based modules as well as the language and translation bits.

If a science young person is doing History A level, of course they can write essays!!! You have entirely missed the point 'puffinkoala'. The point being made is that if you are doing MFL x 2 and a science, you are not doing a recognised essay A level that is likely to produce an essay good enough for Oxbridge admission.(But it could with guidance) Clearly if DD was doing history A level, (as you suggest) essays would be available for submission and skills would be honed. But she is not doing history. No one is saying scientists cannot write essays but they do not write essays at A level that are based on literature or extensive reading.

Yes, MFL courses are very literature based but can encompass history of art, history, art, culture, philosophy, film, etc. They are not all about acquisition of the languages.

If students at Oxbridge needed special sessions to help them writing essays, I think they might feel depressed if the vast majority did not.

I don't follow. Presumably all students could improve their essay writing skills, and so presumably many students with different base level abilities will take advantage of support that a University may offer. And starting abilities will vary. Some will stronger at logical structures and arguments, others will have better command of language.

DD is dyslexic and a scientist. She has always struggled with English, so was happy to sign up to, and has been delighted with, the essay writing support available. Many on her course do not have English as mother tongue, so it is quite likely that DDs skills are better than many. Why would any feel "depressed". You are at University to learn.

Needmoresleep maybe PresentingPercy’s point was that these are Oxbridge students specifically?

As for students who don’t have English as a mother tongue, I would assume that if they were at Oxbridge their English would be excellent, even if doing STEM subjects rather than humanities. Hopefully the same is true lat your DD’s university. Although I’m sure your DD’s skills really are better than many’s.

There’s a big difference though surely between learning essay technique for specific subjects at university, and learning general essay technique at university. The former will be very common and inherent in the course, rather than specific sessions.

Yes. I was talking specifically about Oxbridge students. I am not talking about dyslexic or special needs students either.

I can only state that on DDs MFL course, there were students who found essay writing for the MFL essays in English very very challenging. Largely it appeaed because they had not done an essay A level. It is only her observation and has nothing to do with any science course, any SEN or lack of good grades at A levels. Merely the move to what is required at a high ranking university was a challenge to some . DD was relived she was up to speed because everything in the first term or two is challenge without feeling rubbish at essays!

It was probably the "feeling depressed".

I suspect that students at all Universities have quite a range of skills. Indeed am aware of an English student at Oxbridge (A* at A level, though the first in a while from her school, one which was regularly targeted by Oxbridge to encourage applications, to get that grade) who was pretty shocked during her first term and realised that the some of her peers had had far better teaching and support at school.

There is no harm in not being the best to start off with. Presumably top Universities select on potential, which is why the help is available and should not be seen as a stigma. In any case it sounds as if the OPs daughter will be fine. I personally think she will gain as much from taking a STEM subject she enjoys rather than an English A level which she is less keen on. Who knows she may find her natural interests lie in linguistics.

Absolutely some schools provide much more support than others. Top private schools provide a lot of extra tuition in skills and targeted training and help in things like essay technique.

I rather suspect at Oxbridge, the difference in being selected and not being selected, could come down to the work they have submitted, and ability in tests and interview. Selection is partly on potential, but not absolutely, or the tests and, in particular, the essay submitted, would be worthless. In view of the fact they actually say what they are looking for in an essay, it is stretching it a bit to say entry is gained purely on potential when the tests and essays are scored.

What posters see as no stigma, is not necessarily what the students see. Oxbridge is competitive for many when they are there. Just look at the parent angst when DC fail to get in. It is the holy gail for many and then having to admit you are not as good as your peers after your immense triumo in getting there can be a problem for some. It leads to imooster syndrime and can be damaging. Who wants to struggle in their first term or two and have to admit to feeling not good enough? It is often the students from the less great schools that have this stigma anyway. So being better prepared always helps.

It is not clear if the DD in question will be fine - difficult to tell at the moment. If she has a string of 8-9 grades at GCSE, she probably will be. If she has a 6 at English Lit and Language she may not be.

Struggling in your first term or two must be quite natural for many students though. It’s not school & the style of teaching and some of the skills will be different. In some cases the skills are brand new.

The student in my family currently studying MFL at Cambridge did 2 MFL A levels and Politics.

It sounds like all the push for Oxbridge is coming from you, not her. I've seen what that does to people.

Let her do the subject she enjoys. Maybe you should take the "long view", instead of trying to shoehorn her into Oxbridge.

@Premiumm

I suppose that by top I mean Oxbridge, St Andrews and Durham.

St Andrews?!