A'level choice - ML / biology

[Premiumm]

DD plans to take French, Spanish and biology. She's interested in teaching languages. Does biology add anything to the mix? She refuses to consider history or English, despite being good at them and a reader. Because she enjoys biology.

It's worthwhile learning a language - it gets you into that culture, those people. But I suspect that she'll forget all the biology in a year or 2.

If she is taking 2 languages she will be covering literature and writing essays in both so even for Oxbridge she would be fine. Is there the possibility of taking an EPQ if you are worried that the Biology isn't a suitable third subject (which it is!)

Well up to a point SeasonFinale. If you look at what Oxford want it could be argued they are looking for more from applicants than the MFL A level syllabus. But it’s up to the OP’s Dd to decide what works for her but I think successful candidates will offer more than the A level basic requirement.

My DD did History and Politics A levels as well as MFLs. She didn’t forget them as they were jolly useful. Still are in her job! From a research point of view.

Op doing English A level instead of biology would not make it easier for her to get to uni to do MFL. Especially if she would get (say) A in biology versus C in English.

She should do what she enjoys. And a pp is went to say she can't do a biology degree without another science. Many unis do not ask for an extra science, or will offer for biology but a higher offer, so it's not a no everywhere.

She is likely to get a better grade in a subject she likes. The best prep fir MFL degree is MFL A levels. Yay that she is able to study two!

Those who say decent/top unis (!) ask for an essay subject are not correct. I just checked Warwick (reasonably decent) and they only specify French (not even Spanish) for BA in French and Hispanic studies.

If you're wanting to take a biology degree they want you to have chemistry.

I often see this on MN but it just isn't the case. I know it's not what the op's dd wants to do, but fur general info, my ds2 has offers from Leeds and Newcastle (so again, not too dusty) to study for a biology degree and he doesn't do chemistry!

Two perspectives here FWIW

Personal experience: A levels in French, German and biology. No barrier to university entry - I ended up studying MFL at Bristol with no discernible barrier to learning thanks to the non-essay A level

Professional experience: MFL teacher; quite heavily involved in UCAS application process, especially for MFL applicants. Biology is a well-respected, academic A level (facilitating subject in old money). As long as the applicant has 3 decent A levels they will be absolutely fine, Oxbridge included. For an Oxbridge application your DC can submit one essay in a foreign language and a specially written essay if the other A level subject is not essay-based.

MFL is much more than writing essays. There are many transferable skills from sciences, such as analytical and critical thinking, problem solving, and logic. A non-essay A level can make your DC stand out as someone who’s a little bit different than the bog standard arts student. They just need to be able to point that out in their UCAS application.

all I can do is make it clear to her that this may mean she doesn't get into one of the top couple of universities and may struggle a bit at the start of a ML course

I genuinely don't think this is correct. I did a law and MFL course and students came from all sorts of backgrounds, humanities, languages and sciences.

I didn't do a pure MFL degree because I didn't want to study literature (I very deliberately did not do A level English) - there are lots of options to combine languages with other things.

Science students who cross over to humanities do much better that the other way round. University admissions tutors will be very aware of that.

"I know it's not what the op's dd wants to do, but fur general info, my ds2 has offers from Leeds and Newcastle (so again, not too dusty) to study for a biology degree and he doesn't do chemistry!"

Agree. Goddaughter is at Durham doing first year biology. No chemistry A level.

Who said top universities ask for an essay subject with MFL A levels? It’s clear they don’t but if you look at joint honours with other subjects at Oxford, you can see where their pairings lie in terms of subjects. DD witnessed several of her fellow students struggling with essay writing and they needed help. They didn’t have strong essay writing A levels. Of course most students are perfectly ok. She should do the third subject based on what she will get an A in.

@PresentingPercy

Who said top universities ask for an essay subject with MFL A levels? It’s clear they don’t but if you look at joint honours with other subjects at Oxford, you can see where their pairings lie in terms of subjects. DD witnessed several of her fellow students struggling with essay writing and they needed help. They didn’t have strong essay writing A levels. Of course most students are perfectly ok. She should do the third subject based on what she will get an A in.

Well the OP for one - "I get it that top universities want to see an essay subject"

Thanks, Kate105. Interesting perspective.

A smaller consideration is that friendships in sixth form, especially if there are a lot of new entrants, can divide into groups of scientists, and humanities/linguists. Taking a science means regular contact with both.

I would also expect potential employers, in things like accountancy or law to see a mix as evidence of roundedness.

Hi Premiumm!

Your DD should do what she enjoys. Biology is also a qualitatively different discipline which will broaden her academic and skills base. There will be plenty of writing for her to do in the non-language parts of her French and Spanish, at A Level and at University.

I did French, German and maths. Went to a Russell group uni and an now an MFL teacher of 15 years.

Definitely no issue with doing a science.

DH is a French lecturer. They still teach/ discuss research and essay writing skills at uni. Encourage her to do what she likes 😊

My point was that an essay subject at A level meant you were less likely to need essay teaching at university. Sometimes even people with 3x MFL A levels are not confident in writing university essays. Yes you do plenty of it but for some it’s a steep learning curve. Not sure if Oxbridge offers essay writing teaching? Someone will know.

Essay writing is taught precisely because students are poor at it and they are not good enough to hit the ground running. However some dc do go to Oxbridge with science A levels and MFL and they obviously cope. Oxford interviews 91% of MFL applicants so there’s every chance to persuade them you are a great candidate, with a science A level or not.

I don't understand. Our experience, though not in MFL, is that where some of the cohort are expected to struggle with essay writing skills, Universities provide support. OP says her daughter is good at English and History.

I don't think you get into a top university if they suspect that you will struggle and need support.

What are you classing as a ‘top uni’ OP? It would help to know where your DD is aiming for. I don’t know whether you’d class Bristol as top but I’ve asked DD and she said there is loads of sessions ran by the library etc to help people with writing practice. She’s now doing her MA at Manchester and has said that even at Masters level she has received emails inviting students to Zoom writing sessions etc DS is at Edinburgh and has experienced similar.

Obviously you wouldn’t go into interview saying hi I’m probably going to struggle with essays but once you’re at the uni they can’t kick you out for being crap at essays and want you to do well so will offer support!

I suppose that by top I mean Oxbridge, St Andrews and Durham.

Is she absolutely set on doing both languages? Taking (say) English lit, French and Biology would seem a good option.

Having said that, I failed to persuade my own dd that English would be a sounder choice than drama.

She got an A* in drama, I suspect partly to prove a point.

Would you include London Universities?

DD is taking a STEM subject and has been very impressed at the support for essay writing skills.

Yes. I know Bristol have run sessions for essay writing, and have done for years, and they are now letting students drop grades all over the place for MFL. They certainly would not bat an eyelid at Biology. Does anyone know if Oxford or Durham offer essay writing help though?

There is no advantage in taking English Lit over a MFL for A level. There is no good reason for any MFL student to drop a MFL at A level and replace it with English. Two MFLs give so many better MFL options at universities and joint honours is preferable to single honours if she wants to teach. Way better. The DD did not want English Lit at A level anyway.

The other issue to factor in is worry about not feeling good enough. I know DD said the students who need help on her course felt pressurised and worried. It is extra work in Y1 when you are finding your feet anyway.

Languages are her main focus, and she'll need Spanish and French to teach.
I'm giving her all the information, and she'll then make her own decision, good or bad.