Medicine 2022 entry - How difficult is it really? *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[notmedicmum]

I couldn't find a thread for 2022 entrants to medicine - maybe I didn't look hard enough! DD is in Year 12 and has wanted to do medicine since Year 10. It's only this year that we realise the enormity of actually getting a place. Not only do you have to have brilliant grades, you must also have done work experience, volunteered (both difficult in the current situation), got excellent BMAT/UCAT scores. Oh, and you also must have cycled from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity or climbed Kilimanjaro or won the Nobel Peace prize or found a cure for cancer (joking about the last two). How competitive is it REALLY? I'm not sure about the value of the last apart from being used as a selection tool as the unis get so many qualified applicants - and showing enterprise and drive. Apparently this sort of thing is even more important this year as getting work experience is very hard this year. How does climbing a mountain make you a better doctor anyway? And what can normal students do to improve their chances of success??

Be aware that interim UCAT scores are usually about 60 higher than the final ones

Oh thanks so much for all those replies.

Feeling slightly stricken, as he decided to concentrate on his mocks so he would get great predicted grades (and is predicted 3 A*) but now wonder if perhaps he’d have done better putting more time into his UCAT studies. Ah well, all done now. He really likes Leeds so he is doing the BMAT in November.

His GCSEs: 99999999988
9s for Maths, Latin, English Lit, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, RE (1 year short course, taken in y10)
8s: English Lang, DT
A- FSU (further maths)
Achieved: A for Classical Civ AS level
Predicted A* for each A level: Latin, Chemistry, Biology

For UCAT:
Verbal Reasoning 650
Decision Making 690
Quantitative Reasoning 710
Abstract Reasoning 620
Total Score 2670

SJT - band 2

Thank goodness for this board: it’s slightly scary, but good to know very little point applying for his current favourites of Edinburgh, Dundee, Birmingham…

Fingers crossed for BMAT and Leeds…

I spoke to a couple of medical schools admissions people last week and they are being very cagey about giving anything away re: UCAT cut offs. I think they are being cautious after what happened post-A level results this year, with so many candidates achieving predicted grades. It’s going to be really hard to call this year

@sydenhamhiller don’t worry plenty of options and all that work for mocks will be good for his actual A levels!

Aw, thanks all.
Well, looks like Dundee and Edinburgh out, but maybe Leeds if BMAT ok and Exeter as his predicted grades ok.

Am off to see if I could find a list of ‘what can you apply with average UCAT score but good predicted grades and good GCSEs’.

Is TSR my best bet?

@sydenhamhiller

Aw, thanks all. Well, looks like Dundee and Edinburgh out, but maybe Leeds if BMAT ok and Exeter as his predicted grades ok.

Am off to see if I could find a list of ‘what can you apply with average UCAT score but good predicted grades and good GCSEs’.

Is TSR my best bet?

GANFYD pops in here, and is the main advisor on TSR. I am fairly sure she would say with to an english applicant with 2660 UCAT, B2 and perfect other stats:

Avoid - Bristol, Glasgow, Newcastle, Sheffield, St Andrews, Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh

Risky - Manchester, Southampton, Barts, Birmingham (unless contextual), KMMS (is weird unless contextual so risky for normal applicants), HYMS (only 30% GCSE, rest UCAT/contextual), King's might be OK but you don't want London, Liverpool

Consider - ARU, Edge Hill, Plymouth, SGUL (but that is London), UEA, Cardiff (ensure PS shows he meets the requirements they want, which are set out on their website), Exeter, Aston, Keele (if he has good stuff for the R&R form), Leicester, Lincoln, QUB, Sunderland.

If it was my son, I would be encouraging him to apply to QUB (guaranteed interview with his stats), Cardiff, Leicester and one of UEA/Plymouth/Exeter/Lincoln.

@GANFYD please let us know if I have got any of that wrong!

Oops, forgot Leeds also an excellent choice and maybe BSMS. With GCSEs like those he should do well in BMAT, but only needs a very average score for Leeds because of his excellent GCSEs

@Monkey2001
Excellent advice, as always
I would add Birmingham to Avoid, unless contextual, as score is 6.444, which is likely to be about a point short, I suspect. Also Southampton, as their cut off was 2680 this year, and I think they (and Sheffield, Manchester, SGUL, Liverpool) will be recipients of all those with UCATs 2760-2850 who are put off Bristol, Newcastle, Glasgow, etc, hence pushing their cut offs up a bit. I think Kings probably needs to be on there, too, as even in a typical year, they needed 2600 for full GCSE score, and with a B2, it seemed to be 2700+ last year.
I think Liverpool is likely to be OK. Back when they last used UCAT, they had a cut off around ARU's and lower than SGUL, so whilst I think it will go up, it will hopefully not be by that much.
My boys would probably have gone for QUB, Leicester, Leeds and Lincoln (but only as they did not want PBL or London)

Aggh. I read the UCAT as 2860 so ignore me. I've been looking at too many UCATs this week. It's a good score though as ours seem to be generally a bit down this year. And we haven't had one SJT 1 !
Listen to Monkey and Ganfyd . I'm of to bed - been a nuts first week back. Covid has apparently disappeared in schools.

@Monkey2001 and @GANFYD I cannot articulate how grateful I am for your bespoke advice (and time).

It’s now looking like:
Cardiff
Leeds (fingers crossed for the BMAT)
QUB

We just need a 4th one.
Possibly BSMS.
Exeter would be a good fit, but he didn’t like the ‘look’ of Exeter Med School when we drove through at Easter and trotted round the empty campus 🙄. (Aargh!!)
Is Imperial way too competitive, do you think?
He went on a weekend med school taster to Imperial when he was in y11 and loved it. Then discounted it because he didn’t want London. Now he does not have such a stellar UCAT, he is revisiting his options - it’s a BMAT uni, and they don’t require a very high result…

The issue with BMAT choices is that he will not know his result before he applies, so is applying bliind.
And Imperial's cut off shot up last year, needing 10.9 (S1+S2) and 2.5C.
So depends how he is doing in BMAT practice, I guess?
His academics and UCAT is likely to be good enough for interviews at several places, so it depends if he likes Imperial enough to risk missing out on an interview he could have got somewhere else?

The BMAT is not a weird exam like the UCAT and people who fly through GCSEs tend to find it more straightforward. There will, however, be Maths and Physics content and there is still time pressure.

You said he wanted to leave London and I would really advise him to go to the Leicester open day next weekend if he can, or watch the medicine talk on line if you can't get to Leicester. My son did a tour of Edinburgh and was deeply unimpressed by the medical school, then went to the Leicester open day and loved it. It is also well worth researching QUB as he is guaranteed an interview there with his stats.

If he really wants to consider 2 BMAT choices, I would say it is worth doing some past papers before making the decision. The marks required for good scores have gone up significantly in recent years (older papers give a false sense of security!), so try one of the last 3 years to see whether he is on track for the sort of score Imperial wants - I think you would want to be getting 11.5 in the first 2 sections at home so there was a bit of margin for performing less well on the day. The essay will be fine, no need to check that.

Sorry, you already have QUB on list. So just don't dismiss Leicester lightly!

@Monkey2001

The BMAT is not a weird exam like the UCAT and people who fly through GCSEs tend to find it more straightforward. There will, however, be Maths and Physics content and there is still time pressure.

You said he wanted to leave London and I would really advise him to go to the Leicester open day next weekend if he can, or watch the medicine talk on line if you can't get to Leicester. My son did a tour of Edinburgh and was deeply unimpressed by the medical school, then went to the Leicester open day and loved it. It is also well worth researching QUB as he is guaranteed an interview there with his stats.

If he really wants to consider 2 BMAT choices, I would say it is worth doing some past papers before making the decision. The marks required for good scores have gone up significantly in recent years (older papers give a false sense of security!), so try one of the last 3 years to see whether he is on track for the sort of score Imperial wants - I think you would want to be getting 11.5 in the first 2 sections at home so there was a bit of margin for performing less well on the day. The essay will be fine, no need to check that.

Thanks so much - an screen shorting this and sending to him now.

Feeling slightly stricken, as he decided to concentrate on his mocks so he would get great predicted grades (and is predicted 3 A) but now wonder if perhaps he’d have done better putting more time into his UCAT studies. *

I wouldn't. Studying for his predicted grades will help him ultimately get those A levels, and they are key, as resits limit your options and you need the A level grades to get in anywhere.

The reality is that a very large number of medical applicants do not get in first time, and have to resit the UCAT etc and have another go. @GANFYD might have the latest statistics to hand, but off the top of my head, I remember a figure of over 50% not get any offer at all - and that includes many who got four offers of interview, but no offers of a place. My DS was lucky enough to get two offers, but we definitely went into this with it at the back (if not the front) of our minds that this could well be a two year process, and that he might have to take the UCAT all over again. If you are faced with this scenario, at least having the A Levels in the bag means you can concentrate on UCAT/BMAT/Interview prep. Of everything, the A Levels are the hardest to redo. The thing I feared the most was that he would get no offers, and that would knock his confidence just as he was going into those A levels, which is why psychologically we found it easier to prepare for the worst. And there are so many cases on TSR of people who go no offers first time, but who got four second time round.

@bimkom for 2021 28,690 people applied for around 8,000 places so only 28% could be successful. In 2020 there were 23,720 applicants, in 2019 22,340. A lot of very good applicants miss out on offers every year.

Thanks @Monkey2001 - that is what i was looking for. ie just over a quarter last year got a place. It is really important to bear that in mind - most people do not get offers. Clearly applying strategically helps a lot, but even then, a lot of people have to keep trying if they are determined to succeed. And you can't do it without the A levels. It is a really rough process.

@bimkom

Thanks *@Monkey2001* - that is what i was looking for. ie just over a quarter last year got a place. It is really important to bear that in mind - most people do not get offers. Clearly applying strategically helps a lot, but even then, a lot of people have to keep trying if they are determined to succeed. And you can't do it without the A levels. It is a really rough process.

Thanks bimkom, that’s also helpful to hear.

A 5 hour car journey turned into 7 today, so we had plenty of time to do this subject to death en famille in the car! (I think this whole process has very effectively turned the younger DC off this career.)

DS said himself, if I don’t get in, I’ll try and get a related job/ work in a care home and try again next year. And a family friend got no offers - and then got in on clearing. I am going to magpie your term relating to getting in as ‘a 2 year process’, it makes it sound much more positive.

Having been through it all this year too, @sydenhamhiller,I totally agree with @bimkom. It is a tough process but there are offers to be had and your DS has got a lot working in his favour. The A levels are definitely more important than UCAT in the long run. Without realisation of the A Level grades, any offers are purely academic. Taking the attitude that it can take two years is a really healthy one and it does take the pressure off them a bit. Good luck this time round though.

And I think it's helpful to remember that, despite last year being worse than normal, it's not a new phenomenon. One of my colleagues (who was my F2 back in the day) got zero interviews and zero offers the first time he applied - the following year he got 4 and 4 (that's now 10 years ago). He says it was the best thing that could have happened to him because it made him realise a) how much he wanted it and b) that there were plenty of other people who wanted it every bit as much as him and he was going to need to really put the work in.

Thanks @Chilldonaldchill and @opoponax, this has been such a helpful thread, I am so grateful for everyone’s advice and time!

Looks like the interim mean scores and deciles for UCAT will be published on Friday. According to the website...

As somebody said before the interim scores are always higher than the final scores. I don't really have a prediction for how it will compare with last year except that I think the SJT scores are going to be much lower than usual.

I was 'told' the interim scores are always higher, c50 so not much. I too have heard many with SJT's lower than you would expect. One of our friends son got a very high UCAT (3000 +) and an SJT of 4. Crazy.

It will be interesting to see the spread on SJTs. Entirely selfishly I'm hoping for not too many Band 1s as that would make DD's one more valuable.