Medicine 2022 entry - How difficult is it really? *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[notmedicmum]

I couldn't find a thread for 2022 entrants to medicine - maybe I didn't look hard enough! DD is in Year 12 and has wanted to do medicine since Year 10. It's only this year that we realise the enormity of actually getting a place. Not only do you have to have brilliant grades, you must also have done work experience, volunteered (both difficult in the current situation), got excellent BMAT/UCAT scores. Oh, and you also must have cycled from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity or climbed Kilimanjaro or won the Nobel Peace prize or found a cure for cancer (joking about the last two). How competitive is it REALLY? I'm not sure about the value of the last apart from being used as a selection tool as the unis get so many qualified applicants - and showing enterprise and drive. Apparently this sort of thing is even more important this year as getting work experience is very hard this year. How does climbing a mountain make you a better doctor anyway? And what can normal students do to improve their chances of success??

@mumsneedwine

Using the SJT more makes a lot of sense. Since an SJT exam is going to be 50% of final score for students from 2023. DD always says the stuff isn't hard there is just so much knowledge to cram in. However the ability to think on your feet and make quick decisions is something she says was definitely a UCAT skill.

Hello! Please can you explain this? Is it going to be 50% of UCAT score? Will this apply to those applying for 2023? Thank you!

@MidLifeCrisis007 I agree, predicted grades are a bit of a strange way to assess an applicant. As only 40% prove correct (as many go up as down normally).

@ClarasZoo sorry to confuse ! The 50% for SJT is for the final exams ! They are ranked in 5/6th year for F1 positions and 50% will be academic (so where you are in your year) and 50% the SJT exam they all sit nationally. There will also be a new national exam for everyone but that's new for 2023 so not sure how that's to be used yet.

@MidLifeCrisis007 trouble with Exeter is they need A star predictions, but their offer will be 3 As. So if I know my student can get 3 As and wants to apply to Exeter I'd be mean not to predict. Unfair ? V probably, but other schools started playing this game so we had no choice but to follow, or seriously disadvantage our students.
To be honest I've only had a v few apply to Exeter as my students think it's full of middle class posh kids (this is not exactly how they put it !). Weirdly though, loads apply to Bristol 😂

@ClarasZoo, just to explain a little more what mumsneedwine is saying (because if you are not a medical family, even her explanation may be too technical - I would not have understood it a year ago) - at the moment we are all focussed on getting into medical school, but once they get in, they then have another five (or six) years of study, and at the end of it they have final exams and apply for what are called F1 positions - in various hospitals (actually I think deaneries, but I am a bit hazy still about the details, as my DS hasn't even started yet). Some of the F1 positions can be very competitive (everybody wants to work in X place doing Y), and historically they ranked them, from what I understand, mostly based on where they came in their own medical school exams (as of course each was different). Now they have decided that, from 2023 they will make the exams more national (ie every medical student, regardless of which medical school they attended, will sit the same exam to qualify as a doctor) and it will be based on the rankings of both those components, including the national one, that that will be the deciding factor in obtaining the more coverted F1 positions. And those national exams will be some sort of SJT exam, and will be weighed 50%. Of course by the time our DC get there (my DS has a deferred place, so will be starting in 2022), they may have changed it further.

If 50% of the exams to ultimately qualify as a doctor is going to be SJT, then it makes sense why the medical schools have started making the SJT component a bigger part of the selection criteria.

@bimkom thanks for making it clearer 😊. The national exam wont be used in 2023 for anything except monitoring. Will still be academic ranking within each medical school, but no longer points for that extra degree or publication.
@ClarasZoo ignore me ! I'm wittering about stuff that my son DD is now dealing with, not lovely 6th formers.

In case anyone is interested (& it has come up at interview before). In your final year you apply for Deaneries (some of which which are massive). Within that you apply for your choice of specialities and hospitals. Higher your ranking, the more chance you have of getting first choice (although mine v happy to stay in Notts as small Deanery so can buy a house and commute to all possible hospitals).
You then do 6 rotations over 2 years. These are F1 and 2 (foundation years). Then you specialise and become an ST1, 2, 3 etc before becoming a registrar and consultant.
However something I learned recently is that you can stop wherever you want, so can be an F8 if want to travel. Or stop at ST5 if happy there.
Hope this is correct. It's what I've learned from my DD as we gave no medical people to ask.

@mumsneedwine

In case anyone is interested (& it has come up at interview before). In your final year you apply for Deaneries (some of which which are massive). Within that you apply for your choice of specialities and hospitals. Higher your ranking, the more chance you have of getting first choice (although mine v happy to stay in Notts as small Deanery so can buy a house and commute to all possible hospitals). You then do 6 rotations over 2 years. These are F1 and 2 (foundation years). Then you specialise and become an ST1, 2, 3 etc before becoming a registrar and consultant. However something I learned recently is that you can stop wherever you want, so can be an F8 if want to travel. Or stop at ST5 if happy there. Hope this is correct. It's what I've learned from my DD as we gave no medical people to ask.

Sort of. There are lots of "F3" and "F4" working in Australia and New Zealand etc, even this year. My f2 from last year will be going in January. But jobs for people who stay at foundation level will be really limited. You can only apply for locum type jobs at f2 level really (it's very unlikely there will be permanent substantive jobs at this level). Again you can stop during ST training but then will only be able to apply for jobs at a lower level than that and, again, unless there's a particular recruitment issue, there are unlikely to be substantive jobs. Most people, even if they take a scenic route to get there, do try and CCT at some point (can do part time and take time out sometimes). One of my friends is about to CCT but doesn't want to be a consultant ever so they are thinking of applying for a staff grade post but they wouldn't get it without CCTing. They are in a popular speciality though and maybe it's a bit different in others.

Sorry to do this, but undefined abbreviations really unnerve me...

Just to supplement @Chilldonaldchill's excellent post, CCT = certificate of completion of training. This is awarded when a junior doctor has satisfactorily completed a specialist training programme (usually at least 7 years in total: either 2 years core + 5 years specialist or 7 years run-through), which is undertaken after completion of the second foundation year (FY2). You can't become a consultant without this. The alternative to being a consultant is becoming what's confusingly called an "SAS" (staff grade, associate specialist and speciality doctor) doctor. Since 2008, these have had to have a minimum amount of specialist training. See www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/career-opportunities-doctors/sas-doctors. If the speciality is particularly competitive, of course the jobs will go to candidates with more years of training/experience.

Regarding foundation years, at present the minimum requirement for full General Medical Council (GMC) registration is to have completed the first foundation year (FY1) satisfactorily, including passing the prescribing safery assessment (PSA) if you hadn't already passed it at medical school. Full GMC registration means you will be treated as a qualified doctor in most countries but there are few opportunities available unless you undertake further training and pass postgraduate exams, e.g. Royal College exams in the UK. Satisfactorily completing FY2 allows you to apply for further training programmes. Broadly, these are separated into medicine, surgery, general practice and psychiatry but there will be specialist pathways under most headings.

As others have stated, allocation of deaneries (geographical areas) and rotations (sets of placements) is based on a matching of the graduate's preference and their ranking among all of the applicants for that deanery/rotation. The ranking is based 50% on the situational judgement test (SJT) sat in final year of medical school. This is a national test now delivered in Pearson Vue test centres, just like UCAT. The other 50% is an educational performance measure (EPM). With the removal of points for additional/intercalated degrees, etc., from 2023, this will essentially be the decile within which the graduate ranked at her/his own medical school at the end of the penultimate year of their medicine degree course, i.e. year 4 for a standard 5-year course.

The new medical licensing assessment (MLA), which will be introduced in academic year 2023-24, must be passed by any doctor who wishes to practise in the UK, regardless of where they qualified. Most - if not all - UK medical schools will be incorporating it into their final exams, so that anyone who graduates is automatically qualified to practise. The GMC has repeatedly said that the MLA will not be used to rank graduates. Time will tell...

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne that's weird as DDs exams at end of year 3, 4& 5 are all used for ranking ?

Anyway, if anyone is now asked how training works they've got a great over view 😊. I'm learning lots and as DD is now a 4th year (started in July) she's just starting to look at where to apply next year.

Hope UCATs going ok.

Thank you for the explanations!

Hi - first time posting on this thread and would appreciate any advice:
Son has just taken UCAT: excellent score >3000 but Band 3 SJT. Bit of a shock as always averaged Band 1-2 in (many) mocks etc.

Given move towards more prominence to SJT - in both med school admissions and final exams at med school (based on earlier posts) -he's a bit unnerved with it all and is doubting himself and questioning me on it all (hence me coming here for help!).

He's got great academics and predicted but is starting to wonder if he'd be better applying for a core science degree (thinking Chemistry).

I'm not a medic and didn't go to uni - so I'm not sure if SJT is something that naturally improves through med school or if some have more of an aptitude for same (his ability is more maths/QR/AR and sciences).

He's started drafting his Personal Statement and considering BMAT - which may play more to his strengths - but given his worry re: SJT, and my lack of knowledge/contacts, I'd appreciate any advice or thoughts on how critical it is or is likely to become?

Many thanks in advance.

Sorry, @mumsneedwine, I intended to clarify that but forgot. It's the cumulative ranking at the end of year 4 (for a 5-year course), so usually based on assessments from preceding years as well as year 4. How this is done varies between medical schools. It can be based on any marks from the years that have been completed. In some cases, this is an unweighted average of marks from two or more years, in others the marks from more years might be used but with a greater weighting on later years.

The EPM deciles are submitted by the medical school in September offinal year, so it's unlikely any final-year assessments will contribute to it. Obviously, final-year marks do contribute to final rankings for internal purposes, such as graduating with distinction.

@notmedicmum thank you. All learning for me.

@mumsneedwine I think you meant to thank @NoNotHimTheOtherOne!

@Angharad01 with a UCAT over 3000 he should definitely apply for Medicine ! Not everywhere uses SJT so he has loads of options. Bristol, Newcastle etc (see attached). SJT is easily learned (according to DD), especially once on wards.
He should be v proud of his score, it's amazing and should be in top decile.

@notmedicmum I did. But thank you too as you explained stuff to me as well 😊.

@Angharad01 if he goes onto TSR and the Where should I apply thread & posts his stats then I'm sure the experts will give him loads of advice of where he's likely to get an interview.

@Angharad01 - Others have pointed out that the UCAT SJT and the SJT that contributes to foundation year rankings are different tests. Your son shouldn't worry about his UCAT SJT hanging over him once he's in medical school.

He will need to look carefully at which medical schools a band-3 UCAT SJT will be a problem at, in terms of either selection for interview or contribution to interview score. There should be enough medical schools for him to choose from that don't exclude band 3 or use SJT band in calculating interview score.

Whether he should do chemistry instead of medicine is an important decision, and lots of things should be taken into consideration when making it, but the UCAT SJT score shouldn't be one of them. If he understands what the SJT was assessing and why he scored poorly in it, he is still likely to have the potential to develop that situational judgement in his first few years at medical school.

It sounds like he might need to have a long, hard think about why he wants to do medicine and why he might want to do chemistry instead. It is really difficult for a 16/17-yeard-old to envisage what different careers are going to be like and judge what's the best path to follow. The NHS Careers and Royal Society of Chemistry web sites might be useful.

Thanks all for your advice - it’s perked him up knowing it is a good score and that the SJT is not a deal-breaker. I think he was just very frustrated with himself as he’d always found SJT relatively straight forward.
He did say he had time at end of SJT section and went back and changed quite a few so may have over-thought it and been tired etc at end of stressful exam.
Will certainly tell him to check TSR for suggestions, especially as some excellent unis don’t use SJT, so will keep fingers-crossed.
Will also recommend links re: medicine or chemistry but have a feeling once he’s reflected and calmed down he’ll still want to go for medicine - but important he makes an informed (& his own) decision.

@MidLifeCrisis007 sorry to hear you have been struck down with Covid, hope it is not a severe case.

I am with you 100% on Exeter (and Edinburgh). If they are going to shortlist on A*s at A level, they should expect the successful applicants to get those grades if they were the reason they got interviews.

@MidLifeCrisis007 hope the Covid symptoms pass quickly.

It does seem illogical to shortlist on subjective A* predictions and then not follow through with offers on the same basis.Might make schools think twice about inflating predictions. That, along with the prioritisation of CAGs, made Exeter's selection processes look very odd indeed this past cycle.

Thanks for the kind thoughts @opoponax and @Monkey2001.

DD was the source of my infection after picking it up at Boardmasters. This morning she skipped off to Reading Festival at 6.00am. At least she now has immunity! She's shown no guilt for laying me low though....

@MidLifeCrisis007 hope you're feeling ok and it's a mild dose.
And really kind of them to space Boardmasters and Reading far enough apart so they can go to both - and still isolate 😂.

Apologies for not explaining my abbreviations earlier.
When I used to teach first year medical students, my first session with them was always to ask where the prostate gland was. No one ever used to know and I would then tell them to remember this moment for the rest of their career as in a few months time they would feel as though they had always known everything they were learning - and that it was important to remember quite how much they hadn't known at the beginning and therefore what was unfair to expect patients to know.
But I obviously haven't learnt from my own lessons!