Paying for Accommodation - for 100% online teaching!

[DidoAtTheLido]

This year's students are getting such a rough deal.

My DS is about to start Uni. To begin with they promised 'blended teaching' - online lectures, in person tutorials, and lab time. It is a lab-based practical subject.

Now he has had an e mail, ALL teaching will be online until at least Christmas.

So basically they are paying full price for a course that is delivered in a second best way, and paying to move cities and live in expensive accommodation (in hall) when if it is all online they could stay at home.

Teachers are having to go back to work , this is the age group least affected by COVID, they are away from families so not spreading to older members.

I think this is totally unfair treatment of young people taking out massive loans and parents paying huge sums of money. If they really can't deliver the education properly, the students shouldn't have to pay for it.

Does anyone know of any campaigns or petitions about this?

If online teaching is Face to face, presumably we need never go back to seeing totuu I ta face to face?

Almost all universities are delivering at least some teaching in person, supplemented by interactive online teaching.

I think the point I am trying to make is that an Oxbridge style supervision (1-1 meeting with academic about your work) or a small group tutorial is changed rather little by the meeting taking place using video conferencing, rather than in person. The assumption in this thread is that the students won't be receiving high quality tuition, and won't meet learning objectives, just because classes aren't in person. I don't agree with this: this type of teaching is relatively straightforward to deliver online (but uses huge amount of academic time, due to small classes).

On the other hand, I certainly agree that some types of teaching really do need to be done in person (labs etc) & I am quite surprised that Bristol isn't offering hybrid delivery.

My uni are really really pushing the "you need to be on campus" angle with their students. We're going into second year, so loads of the house contracts were signed months before covid became an issue - but we are timetabled in for 5 days of a few hours over the course of the entire first term and everything has to be made available in an online format as well for the benefit of the international students who still can't return to the UK.

I'd be concerned about mental health and isolation if I had a more timid child going into the first year with no physical freshers events and minimal face-to-face interaction, sitting in a halls of residence room watching lectures over the internet to be honest. As I'm a commuting student and school have pulled their wraparound care at short notice it works out quite well for me - but for the average fresher it's not the uni experience I'd be wanting my own kids to have.

My uni has minimal halls of residence it owns - most are from private providers so it's not as if they're just wanting the Halls money in that case.

I can't fault my own department in how they've supported us though - we've had online briefings to keep us in the loop about what the department had requested in terms of the split between online and face-to-face timetabling (our timetables aren't released until the end of September so it's really nice to have some indication of how things are looking likely to pan out), we've had loads of support for those who had to defer exams when uni closed down at short notice (bless her one of the staff did a whole specific video to show me where to find a file on the online portal), and I had a chat with my tutor the other day just to keep them in the loop with some issues. Informally I know there is the support and approval for those not coming onto campus at all - but the university official line is very much "you need to physically BE here".

I'm going to save a bloody fortune on train fares and parking though.

Information has been deliberately vague, I think. Birmingham still talking of blended learning but all is currently online so the ambition is that some lab work or in person tutorial later in the year. Maybe. Local covid situation obviously a factor but that's more likely to be exacerbated by drinking in town than socially distanced, sober learning, I'd guess. I've stumbled into a parent Facebook group complaining about lack of online offer from March to June so hopefully they've got their act together
I'm not sure it's been my DD's main focus over CAGmas but somehow or other that's the situation she's in now. She's got cheapest accommodation (luck not judgement) with about a dozen flatmates so she's happy to go. Knows a couple of people already from secondary school. Only a couple of hours by public transport so she can come home for a weekend if it becomes deserted.
On balance, it's probably worth the four grand. But if she'd been allocated something twice the price, I'm not so sure.
I'll probably get slapped down for this but obviously all information goes to the student and the late teenage brain isn't known for its focus on detail or considered decision making. They're hard wired to minimise risk and skip to action. I'm sure some have signed up to contracts that aren't in their best interests and the exam fiasco and the clamour to hold onto your place somewhere, anywhere, hasn't helped

As most things in life, individuals will have to consider their own situations and try to make the best of what is on offer. In my dd's case, as a final year student who has had several years with disruption from strikes. And 4 months of full rent for a privately owned house that she was unable to be in, after earlier housing problems in the academic year. She has decided online at home with us for the first term at least is best. A lot of her compatriots are of the same mind, as they look to graduating into workplace carnage next summer. It's more about finances than social life.
With university staff relatives currently furloughed to save funds, as colleagues work unbelievably hard to keep their institution afloat, she knows things are very tough from both sides of the table. No-one is getting a great deal!

My Dd is still keen to go (will be going).its her decision but with nearly 7k of self catering accommodation costs I cannot help but feel it's a mistake. There were due to be 3 of them going from same school but one missed grades..it certainly would have been cheaper in private accommodation with access to the town and Dd drives so transport not an issue. There is due to be building noise near to their accommodation so not conjusive with online learning in your bedroom.. No sports hall open, limited visiting to accommodate, no student union,limited library access.

For what we are paying for accommodation its certainly not cost effective.

I think she will be OK friends wise she's easy going and has an older friend at the Uni too. I'm worried about the online learning, I don't think it will suit Dd but hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

As well as labs, group work can be very difficult on line. DD had found that it has been one thing setting up a meeting when they are all on campus. However it is much more tricky when each is at home with their own priorities.

So the person who has added shifts added to a job they do not want to lose, or the person who thinks that just because they have turned nocturnal and assume everyone is the same. And even more difficult if you don't already know the people.

It will be interesting to see which Universities manage best. There is already a lot of experience in on-line teaching. DD is currently taking a compulsory summer school which, I think, is normally taught on line. The material is divided into modules and there is regular testing. So no chance to fall behind or miss bits. Much easier than the summer group placement she was doing before that which was hastily put online, and where the main challenge was organising group working. (In the end a small number went off on their own, did the work and waited for others to contact them, rather than continue to try and chase them. One only got in touch two days before the deadline, at which point they revealed that the work had already been submitted. Not ideal for those doing the work, but perhaps a worse outcome for the one who essentially missed the whole module, who gets the mark but not the learning.)

Fucking hell. The priorities!

The UK's world-class thinkers, researchers, scientists and knowledge-makers should obviously risk their actual lives so that Olivia and Sebastien get the "student experience" Mummy and Daddy are paying for!!

With university staff relatives currently furloughed to save funds, as colleagues work unbelievably hard to keep their institution afloat, she knows things are very tough from both sides of the table.

Virtually no university staff are furloughed as the government would not allow this. Furlough is only an option is there is no work for furloughed staff - it isn't allowed just to reduce salary bills by passing the work onto a smaller number of people.

University academics, unlike teachers, weren't classified as key workers. Even those researching Covid weren't considered key workers.

You might have your class generalisations a bit askew there in our case @Goodoldfashionedploverboy .

My Dc is on full loan, from social housing and a S London comp.

And it isn’t the ‘student experience’ I am interested in. Young people will fund a way to get that. It’s that the finest minds and thinkers of the next generation (mine got 3 x A*) get a decent education to support their potential.

And aren’t the current finest minds paid to teach, too?

No. A lot of them have not have their short term contracts renewed

Agree completely Dido . We are not just talking about academics here we are talking about future doctors, dentists vets architects etc who need a full rounded education to peruse these careers or would “Goodoldfashioned” prefer we sacrifice their education and create a profession void in 5-10 years with none of these professions.available . Obviously no one would want anyone to take unnecessary risks with their health but PPE is available and with these brilliant minds available surely work arounds can be found.

with these brilliant minds available surely work arounds can be found.

Er yes - the workaround is blended learning

And aren’t the current finest minds paid to teach, too?

At a number of the RG universities feted on here, they expect to be able to offload that onto their PhD students so that they can devote themselves to research. That's not to say the PhD students aren't good teachers - they generally are and may even be better - but it's emblematic of some smoke-and-mirrors RG marketing.

Er yes - the workaround is blended learning hmm

Except they are not now doing blended learning.

Look, I know all sectors are under pressure. I am really sorry if Uni tutors have lost work. But where is the Gvt support in this? They have poured rescue money into the hospitality industry, airlines fir holidays. But the plan for Universities seems to be let the students rack up £60k of debt for tuition, without practical work, that has no track record tested for effectiveness or success.

Meanwhile some of the posters in this thread who speak on behalf of the Uni POV have been rude, dismissive and belittling.

Ho hum.

The government is planning to let struggling universities fail. Mass university expansion was a labour policy and it’s been disastrous.

My twins have finished their degrees now and it is their post grad law conversion that is 100% on line to start with. I believe one student's law firm was told it would be online only until January (the law firms pay for some students on the courses so are a huge financial supporter in a sense of that particular course so this is all very different from the usual research universities so in a sense an outlier on this thread).... If that is so then 50% of the course will be 1090% on line and I will have paid rent £600 a month rent from July to Dec so my son can live with and near his friends and indeed he is not going back yet as they aren't back. My choice of course. I could have said - ah ha covid 19 has destroyed your once in a lifetime chance of a gap travelling year with friends - if you want me to pay the course fees you have to live at home but I felt his year had been bad enough as it stands - the strikes, the last term gone, no graduation ceremony, not much of a final term or summer etc.

I am happy to let the frustration of some university people wash over me. Loads of people in the UK are having a very difficult time for all kinds of reasons and my only advice to the twins when they went to university was be kind and that remains something we probably all could do with from time time to time.

It is a bit like being delayed at a station or airport. The most important thing people want is information - is it a 1 hour delay or 24 hours and often we aren't told. Now I accept it is hard to know how things will develop with a pandemic but consumer does require people are told what they are paying for which is why the universities had to say there would be face to face teaching - I think they were almost ordered to say so or else to say no face to face teaching before the point when students were contractually bound to take the place so they could make an informed choice.

( By the way my sons have no problem with all on line on their course as they are not freshers and are very laid back about most things and their course is just a means to an end - law.)

A bigger issue is young graduates not being able to learn the ropes in offices if most of them are closed (or even in some hospital and other placements of that kind). It is not too hard for older people to work from nice houses. It is the young who lose out if they are not physically around people learning the ropes in the usual way. Better some older people increase their risk of death than younger people's lives be destroyed in my view. In fact if you ask most very old people in care homes if they would put themselves above their grandchildren they just about all want the grandchildren's life chances to have priority and most parents would lay down their life anyway for their children as a general principle.

Looking at it a different way, this is a huge opportunity for Universities to develop high quality distant learning, as part of a blend that can be used in the future when things are more 'normal'.

It is something that some top US Universities have been developing for a while. And presumably those who run UK Universities and who are highly paid for their strategic thinking, have already been thinking about. The new normal is that many workers will not return full time to their workplace as GPs, say, have worked out that online Zoom consultations can be as effective and more efficient for some groups of patients. Or the office workers who are realising that they can have a better life/work balance if they work from home part of every week, with their employers enjoying the savings in providing office space for them.

Then students. The British are odd in that many students expect to live away from home to gain the "full student experience". This is different from most of Europe and indeed the US where most students will stay in state, and indeed locally. It is most then possible that the new normal will be some form of blend.

The important thing will be to develop a blend that works, not just something that is cobbled together. And there are all sorts of elements. The online teaching DD has received so far has been very organised. However because of GDPR there does not seem scope to set up a group chat away from teaching staff where they can offer peer support, or even say, a meet up in a park for those in London to celebrate term starting. They are all fourth year (intercalating medical) students so will have fewer study issues, but this is going to be very different to first years who have not been near a class room for six months. Even so, it might be valuable to have someone whose role it is to reach out and to try to develop personal and peer links. Not just the computer generated email that tells her she has met or exceeded required standard on the latest test, followed by a fee invoice.

Wise words @Needmoresleep

It certainly is on the radar at my institution, although the regulatory framework isn't supportive (maintenance loans aren't available for solely distance learning programmes for example), but as a principle, flexible learning through online and 'digital scaffolding' is certainly something we're pushing out a lot faster now.

Titchy,

There is a huge opportunity if Universities can take it. DD is at Imperial this year, where the proportion of international students adds impetus. And if they don't jump on board with a high quality "product" they will lose out to competition from the US.

It is clearly not as simple as throwing everything on line. Almost certainly about 75% of DS' LSE degree could have been online. But the real strengths of his course were office hours, and the strong references he had when applying for a PhD, his strong peer group who colonised a room of the library to work through problems together, and the series of group sessions which allowed them to peer review and support their third year research theses. Plus the network he built of like minded, in his case subject obsessed, students, PG as well as UG.

If DDs course stays on line someone needs to make sure that the strongest are talent spotted (it is a big research area) and the weakest are supported. By both academics and peers. Otherwise there will be a lot of missed opportunities.

I definately think it could be an Interesting time for Unis . And maybe the traditional model of uni students living in halls away from home will be outmoded and replaced in future by more students staying local And just popping in for seminars , lab work like our european and overseas cousins accessing the rest online.
What would this mean for Unis and fees though. Do they rely on accomodation fees or is most of it subcontracted out?
How much do they rely on revenue streams from students being on site using the student bar etc? Will they start sharing resources with sister universities overseas such as on line lectures or even more interesting could Unis start sharing resources between themselves and merging together so there is less of them . I know most big cities have at least 2 universities each. Would this be needed if most resources moved online and students stayed locally at home.
Ultimately will Uni fees go down or up and could universities survive a change in the model like this.
Are we about to see the beginning of a change in how students approach university similar to what WFH is doing to the commercial sector. Also university education could become more fluid not necessarily tied to a 3 year full time/part time course starting at a particular time With maybe courses divided into modules which could be accessed at any time or multiple start points throughout the year at the students convenience and degrees stretched over multiple years
I think this could be a fantastic opportunity to completely revelutionise(?) the university experience and make it more easily accessible to all removing all this crazy UCAS madness of August and September.

The thing is I think it will be very short sighted of universities if they don’t look at ways to adapt to provide face to face tuition

Remote teaching is face to face teaching.
Most universities are offering on campus teaching supported by remote and online support/teaching.
In two weeks time I will be on campus teaching face to face. My 'in person' teaching has barely reduced but I'm also expected to provide online sessions for those that can't attend. My workload has increased massively.

Remote teaching may be face to face but it doesn’t necessitate being in campus accomodation which was the initial complaint by the opening poster. That being said @Sueellenmiske you have just said you will be participating in person teaching as well which obviously would justify campus accomodation. What form would this be taking. Small seminar teaching? lab work? How many in a group? How often would a student typically see you in person (not face to face zoom). To be honest as a mother of a fresher I am really heartened to hear this. I think we are all concerned that our children will be trapped in their rooms looking at a screen all day with no physical in person contact from uni lecturers or staff.
Luckily my Dd has selected a uni which is commutable (just) so she could switch to at home learning if needed in future years so we could eliminate the accomodation costs but as she is doing a hands on physiotherapy course I am desperately trying to get some surety that she will walk out after 3 years of fees having gained the knowledge and experience to Pursue this career which would not be obtainable with just online or remote teaching as it needs hands on teaching.

Bringing a different perspective on this.

DS is doing a course - BMus Jazz at a conservatoire - that there are very specific challenges in delivering during a time of Covid, especially as he plays a wind instrument, which until recently he has not been allowed to play with anyone at all, however great the SD.

In the summer, all rent was waived by the halls he lived in, all lectures were delivered online, and 1:1 instrumental lessons were via Zoom. However, for jazz in particular, small group playing is essential to deliver tuition.

For the moment, the conservatoire is offering lectures online, but organised group playing as 'bubbles' - a group of small band groups, within which students can play alongside each other. i would imagine that there will be some physical distancing, and pretty clear rules on not playing with other bubbles.

1:1 tuition, and possibly even the personal tuition of small bands, may be done via Zoom or similar, because the synchronisation issue which makes group playing impossible is removed if the group are all together and the tutor alone is remote. Or it may be in person for some. larger groups are off the table for the moment.

I'm actually really happy with the way it has been handled, both in terms of the immediate lockdown provision (and refund of housing costs), and the pragmatic way they have decided to re-open.