Paying for Accommodation - for 100% online teaching!

[DidoAtTheLido]

This year's students are getting such a rough deal.

My DS is about to start Uni. To begin with they promised 'blended teaching' - online lectures, in person tutorials, and lab time. It is a lab-based practical subject.

Now he has had an e mail, ALL teaching will be online until at least Christmas.

So basically they are paying full price for a course that is delivered in a second best way, and paying to move cities and live in expensive accommodation (in hall) when if it is all online they could stay at home.

Teachers are having to go back to work , this is the age group least affected by COVID, they are away from families so not spreading to older members.

I think this is totally unfair treatment of young people taking out massive loans and parents paying huge sums of money. If they really can't deliver the education properly, the students shouldn't have to pay for it.

Does anyone know of any campaigns or petitions about this?

I agree with you op. My dd is going into her 2nd year. I can't see why small group tutorials and one to ones would have to be online only. The rest of the country are taking risks in going back to work (and millions have been taking risks just doing their normal day job throughout the pandemic), university staff are not a special group as far as I'm aware.

As for the pp who complained about only having only 3 days off since March. Can you say more about why that is? What has been the reason for you being unable to take any holiday? It might help us ignorant, entitled, fee paying parents understand.

Most students aren't on full loans and bursaries. A lot are being subsidised by parents. If they are getting a full loan, then buying a laptop is a priority - better imo than spending it on halls this year and being reliant on a uni computer in the library.
Revenue from student loans and halls doesn't cover the whole cost of providing all courses, but at the same time many courses have very small amounts of contact time, so I think students paying 9k for these courses are probably subbing the courses where many lab hours and contact time takes place. That's not the issue though since teaching does have to be paid for and probably the most fair way to do it is to charge the same amount for all undergraduate courses so certain subjects don't become available only to the wealthy.
The issue is with halls. Yes, there are benefits for kids wrt increased independence from living in halls, but it's not the universities job to provide this - imo their role is purely academic. The life gains are a side effect. Personally (as the parent who paid for the halls, so independence is an illusion in any real sense), I wouldn't pay for university accommodation this year because I don't think it's financially worth it.
The OP was told tuition would not be entirely online when she signed up to the halls agreement, but this has changed so I think she's entitled to also change her mind.
It's not parents/students responsibility to keep universities afloat by paying for things they won't get full benefit from. Plenty of time and other opportunities in life for students to learn life skills. They already know how to socialise

Lack of leave could be down to:

• extra time working out how to move teaching online (it's complex, we don't just do the same thing as usual but via a computer monitor, the whole unit will be resdesigned
• planning new units
• supporting students struggling with the pandemic for all sorts of reasons including visas, childcare, family bereavement
• marking
• resubmission marking
• having to cope with rescheduled deadlines - for example my students deadline has been moved by a month meaning that my usual leave period vanished
• getting on with research that I am penalised if I don't do
• helping redesign structures to try and make it possible for lab work to happen safely
• getting on with the usual uni admin including a revalidation of 4 courses
• giving my students additional book groups and coffee mornings throughout the summer (I have Masters students) to help them feel connected to each other
• supervising final masters projects
• training
• exam boards
• dealing with new cohort enquiries while the last lot are still here (there's usually a short gap)

... the list goes on. I've still got 10 days leave to take which I'll lose because if I took it the above would not get done and the students would suffer.

I'm not going to engage further because I don't think I have to justify myself or my colleagues - just that we work bloody hard to give our students the best all-round education we can, and the idea that we just waft about and have all summer 'off' is like saying that school teachers stop work at 3.30. But I'm not here for a pity party, just to say that what your young adults are getting is not 'just lectures online.' The idea that it is, is incredibly unhelpful and indeed will stop our students from engaging properly with the whole of the uni experience. Covid or no Covid, they should be encouraged to start their courses with open minds, being willing to learn, meet people, engage, grow as people. Sending them off with such a transactional mindset won't do them any favours.

It's not parents/students responsibility to keep universities afloat by paying for things they won't get full benefit from.

So whose responsibility is it, or are you content with some institutions going under?

Tbh, I think there probably are too many universities offering courses which aren't particularly useful to graduates in gaining employment. Now might the time to refocus on more specific career based training or recognise that degrees are not essential for many jobs.
I think far too many kids are leaving with high debt but not necessarily the graduate job which justifies it.

(Imagines this discussion in a seminar - where to go next? Likelihood of 18 year olds all knowing what they want to do in life? Likelihood of number of grad jobs being available for all? How to rank jobs you need training for but have low initial wages such as entry level film and tv - detour while people say film and tv is worthless til I ask what they watched during lockdown - back to whether you can legitimately rank subjects by wages and ultimately if it's the magic circle lawyer or the care worker who gives more to society....asks about the idea of education for education's sake, about life chances for students from very different backgrounds .... leaves them in the corridor still talking about it....)

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Tbh, I think there probably are too many universities offering courses which aren't particularly useful to graduates in gaining employment. Now might the time to refocus on more specific career based training or recognise that degrees are not essential for many jobs. I think far too many kids are leaving with high debt but not necessarily the graduate job which justifies it.

Let me guess, Media Studies and Computer Games programming?

I agree it’s not parents responsibility to keep universities from going under.

This particular cohort - why is it specifically the responsibility of their parents to pay to make sure that a university is able to continue for the young people who come after them?

I say this as the mother of a 15 year old (my eldest) who may want to go to university in three years time. I hope that she has a full choice of universities, but I don’t expect parents of current cohort to be made to feel guilty for not allowing her that future choice.

IMO the government should step up, but they won’t because they know full well that there are too many universities that aren’t financially viable or offering value for money in terms of their degrees being a good career investment. There will be a natural cull, which is terrible for the staff, the local area, etc - as previously discussed. But you can’t keep failing universities open to protect jobs, especially when people are getting into debt to attend them, with no good return on that debt.

I am paying £4k for my son's rent (£6k less the difference between doing his course in London and where he will be) in effect so he can stay near his university friends and be with them - I am prepared to do that but I would like him to get some face to face contact between the course ends in mid April.

I do not think freshers this year are going to get the social interaction mentioned to the same extent as in earlier years particularly if they are not allowed to sit next to people in halls meals even though they can in commercial restaurants so in a sense parents are paying so that universities can be more cautious than other bodies and people Eg if oxbridge will be doing one to one face to face tutorials why can't some other institutions? Is it because some places have more lecturers who have health conditions than Oxbridge does for example?

In terms of going to Uni to get life experience.. I can rent a house locally for my daughter and 5 friends. They can cook, manage bills, shop do all the household chores etc for the same amount as 2 students are paying in halls. So that would save them around 3k each per year. No fear about having to be with complete strangers 24/7 who she may not have anything in common with etc.

I think universities are being unfair and if its online learning then they should defer campus arrival until at least January although I know this won't suit all students who want to spread their wings and leave home. There will be a lot of dropouts.

It is disgusting, my eldest is studying Physics and his last year has been an utter shambles with barely any teaching at all, yet he is still expected to pay for the full years tuition !

It's the accommodation costs that are the issue. Yet all the focus is on how fees should be cut. Why are petitions not about how student housing providers should be required to be more flexible - and don't forget that many aren't owned or run by the universities anymore; they've been franchised out to private providers because the market always manages things better, right? And interesting how the government has refused to help universities financially but seems much keener to protect landlords and private housing companies, while universities soak up all the flack.

What's the situation with your DC's accommodation, OP? Who owns and runs it? They are the people to target for concessions.

If any student did decide to stay at home and participate online where do you think they will find their necessary research materials - your local small town library? Don’t think so!

I was at uni 10 - 15 years ago and most of the library was online. I also did get some papers from my local library as inter library loan was cheaper than the uni inter library loan.

Oh and I could use my local uni library as a reference library.

On the general uni accommodation I think what can / could be done varies by the campus and the course.

Somewhere like Keele which is a virtually self contained small town could limit (if students would agree) interactions outside the uni and create a massive 'bubble'.

I have 2DS entering uni this year. It’s not entirely clear for either what if any face-face contact they will have - although the commitment seems to be for as much as ‘possible’. If this turns out to be ‘none’ there will be a lot of very disappointed students (and parents) and I think they will have been misled.
Only one is moving to a different city - the uni is actively promoting campus and there’s been no suggestion that they ‘should’ consider staying where they are rather than heading to campus (and onto on site provided uni accommodation). I think it’s important that they have the chance to create their own network in situ so happy to pay for halls. Engagement if they were just sat at home would be low.

The sector has probably got too big and in some cases the value needs to re-evaluated so maybe it’s right that there is some contraction of the sector.

We need universities to be transparent and young people to engage with the ‘new offering’ but it’s difficult to prepare them when it’s not entirely clear what they will get.

Eg if oxbridge will be doing one to one face to face tutorials why can't some other institutions?

Because Oxbridge has additional funding to cover this. In our other world leading universities academics are already working very long hours & there simply isn't the funding for 1-1 teaching. Top tier universities also have huge intakes this year, following the A level fiasco, so are absolutely stretched to their limits. And they don't have the teaching space for a huge number of small classes.

The sector has probably got too big and in some cases the value needs to re-evaluated so maybe it’s right that there is some contraction of the sector.

But the hit isn't just to the "low value" universities. Top ranked departments/universities are also looking at significant loss of income, with associated loss of staff (voluntary severance and even redundancy schemes, no replacements for retirements etc). Even pre-pandemic about half of the Russell Group were operating at a loss due to inadequate funding - this includes Cambridge in 2019/2020. It's very easy to jump on the wagon of "low value" courses - when in reality even the very highest ranked departments and universities are facing continual pressures on budgets.

I feel for all the University staff but its not down to students to bail them out.. Let's face it last year uni staff didn't give any thought to the students when they were striking.. Now they expect students to support their employment by paying fees.. It works both ways.. If universities have issues it should be with government.

Yes that's true Frazzled. Last term, between the strikes and Covid, DS missed a lot of uni time. I feel for the tutors because what can they do if their employer is screwing them over, apart from withdraw labour? But it doesn't help the students, who are not getting the service they have paid for and learning what they need to know in order to be employable.

My DS is studying at our local University and has decided to stay at home for his first year as he can’t see the point of paying fo halls. I’m a bit relieved to be honest as my DP has just been made redundant so we would have really struggled to afford it even if DS receives the full maintenance allowance.

DoctorDoctor The University owns and runs the halls.

It isn't just the accommodation - it is the loss of practical learning and the learning environment. If teachers have gone back, I don't see why University staff couldn't go back for small tutorial groups and socially distanced lab work.

I agree that the Gvt should be supporting Universities, not the students.

There are certainly legal issues in all this. The Competition and Markets Authority just issued guidance on contract changes and covid 19 www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds. These include that if you have not received part of a service you should get a refund - that of course begs the question of what is the service. Eg if you were told there would be face to face teaching when you contracted and now the institution is not providing that that may be one situation.

Thank you Xenia.

All the young people I know who are starting Uni this year are just looking crestfallen. In my day there would have been a sit-in in the Chancellor's Office on day one.

No fear about having to be with complete strangers 24/7 who she may not have anything in common with etc.

Which is absolutely lovely if one's DC is going off to the same university as a bunch of chums (from one of the schools where every year more than a tutor group's worth of them all go to e.g. Exeter, because both students and their mums and dads think that the school's policy of only sanctioning applications to certain universities is a good thing, perhaps?). Most sixth forms see their university entrant leavers heading for a wide range of destinations, certainly not enough, who all get on well enough to want to share a house, going to the same one.

DD has chosen to rent a house for second year with a friend made on her course, plus two of the random strangers she was put to share with in first year. Although the three of them heaving sigh of relief, I suspect, at leaving behind the one who did seem to have moved away, but not in with, a bunch of friends from home and the group's self-appointed Kitchen Monitor (no doubt every other set of parents' dream flatmate).

Trite sayings, I would normally have two fingers down the back of my throat at before you could say 'knife', but in this case, I really do think the attitude Strangers are just friends you haven't met yet has a lot going for it.

So going back to your specific issues @DidoAtTheLido

1. It is the withdrawal of any tutor time

What does this mean? Is it that there will be no 1-1 opportunities with lecturing staff and do you mean academic (e.g. module leads) or more pastoral (e.g. personal supervisors).

1. or lab time that is the issue.

So there will be no lab time for lab-based subjects. What is the mitigation for this?

Eg if you were told there would be face to face teaching when you contracted and now the institution is not providing that that may be one situation.

Online interactive teaching is face to face teaching.

The thing is I think it will be very short sighted of universities if they don’t look at ways to adapt to provide face to face tuition . This years students are already committed now but next years students will have the benefit of hindsight Will they be committing to accomodation costs Or even tuition fees if things remain the same? Universities need to learn to adapt quickly and provide something more than open university online or they will find them selves left without students . Universities are not immune to market forces of supply and demand and they should not forget this. Otherwise those universities that don’t provide face to face tuition will lose out next year to those that do.