Studying Medicine question

[LillyM50]

Hello,

My DD wants to study medicine and is only just going to sixth form. During her interview she was advised to take Chemistry, Biology and Maths. She's also decided to take Further maths because she enjoys it.

I want to guide her in her applications but my understanding in this field is close to zero. I read she will have to take different tests depending on which uni she applies to.

Does the school arrange this or is this something DD has to plan herself? Do sixth form normally guide university applications? I want to guide her but have no idea where to start. Any advice is welcome. Thank you.

Hi @LillyM50 - there is currently a Medicine 2021 entry thread that is very active and also Medicine 2020 - I’d say have a read if these as lots of useful info!

Re other tests, there are two. So you have the UCAT which the majority of medical schools use and then also the BMAT which I think around 8 use - including Oxbridge.

The UCAT is sat in the summer between year 12 and year 13. The BMAT is normally early sept and then another sitting in Nov. This year the Sept sitting was cancelled. Oxford require the Nov sitting and won’t accept sept. The advantage to the September sitting is having your results before you apply!

They don’t have to sit both - for example my DD sat UCAT and was pleased with her scores and likes plenty of UCAT universities so she is not going to do BMAT.

Another important part is some volunteering and work experience, although that’s pretty much impossible at the moment! Part time jobs are often looked upon favourably too.

GCSEs can be important for some Med schools and less so for others, depending on their selection criteria.

Hope this helps as a starting point - there are much more knowledgeable people than me on the medicine threads though so do take a look!

Should have said you arrange your own entry exams but school will hopefully keep your DD right too if she makes her intentions known

Thank you very much @LaLaFlottes , that certainly gives me something to start thinking about. So many useful tips! Do you know if UCAT or BMAT tests need to be booked way in advance?

Ideally she would like to attend Imperial Collage. She did send oodles of work experience letters out but as you said it's almost impossible. Hopefully soon even if it's just at our local charity shop. The school is letting her run a science club for juniors but i am not sure that will count.

GCSEs were all A*

Your DD definitely needs biology and chemistry. Work experience, preparing for BMAT/UCAT and medical school interviews take up a lot of time, and there is little advantage in taking 4 A-levels over 3 when it comes to getting into med school so your DD might want to see how it goes with taking further maths. There is no point in spreading herself to thin and getting 4 As when she needs A*AA (for example). It can be better to concentrate on getting very good grades in 3 subjects rather good grades in 4.

Schools normally guide university applications. If she applies to med schools that use the BMAT or UCAT exams for selection, she will need to prepare for the exams herself and apply searately to UCAS. Some schools are also exam centres for the BMAT so she might be able to take the exam at school.

Work experience is also important and can take time to arrange (there are lots of students all looking for placements) so start applying now. It doesn't have to be be in a hospital or with a GP, it could be anything related to the skills needed to be a doctor eg volunteering in a care home or special school or riding for the disabled, St John's ambulance, working in a pharmacy, scientific research.

She also needs to research the different med schools. They all have different teaching methods. How much clinical experience is there in the pre-clinical years? Do the teach traditionally or mostly by PBL (problem based learning)? Do they teach anatomy by dissection or prosection? Does she want to intercalate for a year and take a related BSc (compulsory at some med schools, optional at others)? Some universities (eg Oxbridge, Imperial) have a greater emphasis on the research/academic side of medicine than others, both in teaching and selecting candidates.

It's also important to apply tactically. She needs to chose med schools with a range of different grade offers so she has an insurance offer. Different schools have different criteria for selecting for interview (GCSE grades, BMAT/UCAT, work experience) so she should reseach where she is most likely to get an interview. They have different interview styles (MMI or panel interview or both), does she feel she might come across better with a particular style? It's also worth looking at the application/interview/offer ratio for different med schools. When mine applied, St George's was the only med school that ever had places in clearing but only for applicants that hadn't been rejected at interview so it was an extra back up if you didn't get an offer.

Medical School Interviews by Picard & Lee is a good book to help prepare for interview. It's also worth picking up a book on writing personal statements for med school. Generally, med schools don't use the personal statements for interview selection but they may use them for discussion at interview so it is good to pre-empt the questions they will be asking and answer them in the PS and emphasis the qualities/skills that the schools she has applied to rank most highly in their selection criteria e.g. academic research (Oxbridge) versus work experience (St George's). NB that was correct when mine applied, that might not be the case now!

These are good sites to start her research:

www.medschools.ac.uk (The Medical Schools Council)
www.themedicportal.com

The student room is also a good place for her to talk to current medical students, fellow applicants.

Good luck!

The science club for juniors could count towards work experience (leadership, team work, communication, nurturing younger students). Obviously your DD needs to be able to give examples of how it was relevant and what she learnt from the experience eg clincal communication is an important part of medicine. She could think about how her experience of running the club might relate to that?

One of mine is a 4th year at Imperial @LillyM50, if your DD has any questions? I can ask him for any tips too.

I've changed names so you won't find me on the medic threads under this name. There are other posters who have DC at Imperial or are heading there this year too.

@LillyM50 no problem!

UCAT and BMAT don’t need to be booked way in advance - school will keep you right I’m sure but for UCAT bookings will open next year, sometime late spring/early summer I would guess - they were delayed this year so it was a bit later - then you choose when to sit your test, normally over the summer months. The UCAT is sat in a test centre, like where you would go to do driving theory tests! You get the results straight away which is literally the only nice thing about it - it’s a horrid test. You will see reference on this years medicine thread to people sitting UCAT at home. This was introduced for this year as capacity at the test centres is too low with social distancing etc so candidates had the option of sitting at home with online proctoring. Depending on the state of affairs next year this may or may not be an option. DD sat hers in a test centre.

Imperial is a BMAT Uni.

It’s best to keep options open and see how things go, as like @orangenasturtium says, it’s important to apply tactically. So for your DD for instance, her GCSEs are great so choosing universities that put more weight on these could be advantageous. Then see how BMAT and UCAT go and where DD will have the best chance. It’s nice to know where you want to aim for but more important to apply where you have best chance based on their selection for interview criteria.

Hardly any Medical Schools differentiate between an 8 and a 9 at GCSE which is a little frustrating (DD has eight grade 9 and two grade 8 so would have preferred them to differentiate between the two) but this may change! I think Queens in Belfast May be there only one that does so far.

I agree with @orangenasturtium about 4 a levels. As far as I know it’s only Barts that uses UCAS tariff Points and everywhere else the 4th A level is not required, so can be best to spend that time elsewhere - on UCAT BMAT prep or volunteering for example. It’s worth noting that if A A Astar is the requirement, as I think it is for Imperial, then A A A A wouldn’t make up for not having the star... so the 4th A level could be detrimental. This 3 or 4 A levels has often caused heated debate though on the medicine threads so others may have a different point of view! My DD was keen to do either French or Further maths as well As Biology, Chemistry, Maths - but decided against it. She is however doing a medical topic EPQ which she decided would be more beneficial, both to talk about at interview (if she’s lucky enough to get that far) and also as some medical schools would allow you to drop a grade in your A levels if you get an A in your EPQ. She decided it could be a good thing to have.

Stick at it with the volunteering and hopefully something will come up. Maybe ask at local Brownie or Guide groups as that would count? The school club is a great idea.

When it comes down to it, they want to know how you’ve reflected on your volunteering and work experience rather than what you did. Even a part time job as a waitress shows you are used to dealing with the public etc.

Good luck it’s a bit of a roller coaster as a non medic parent but we do our best!

DS just reminded me of an important point about the BMAT. When he took it, you had to take the exam in November, after the UCAS deadline for med schools so it was a bit of a gamble as you didn't know your score before choosing where to apply, whereas with the UCAT you took the test first so you knew whether you had a good chance of getting an interview (the cut off scores for previous years are available online so you have a rough idea of the requirements).

There is now a BMAT exam sitting in September as well as November BUT Oxford insists the exam is taken in November. If your DD is considering applying to Oxford, she needs to bare in mind that if she applies to other BMAT universities she won't know her score before she applies, which is a risk.

My d just finished her first year as an imperial medic so if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask x

I’d agree with what other said - it’s better to get the best grades possible in three A levels than to take four and risk slightly lower grades - applying to med school can be stressful and more time consuming than you’d think - with entry tests and interviews etc, and things like voluntary work, shadowing, reading around current issues in medicine, maybe having a part time job, hobbies, sports and a social life all take up time.

Imperial’s standard offer is AAA, they require the A to be in chemistry or biology. My daughter is very much enjoying the course up until lockdown and can’t wait to get back. She didn’t really have much medical work experience, this can be hard enough to access without Covid unless you have family contacts. She did some sports coaching and also had a job all the way through sixth form and could illustrate many of the personal skills and qualities required in medicine with examples from these - even down to the time management required to keep up grades while coaching, working, and having a social life. She chose to take the ucat test in July before the end of year 12 (you book this yourself online) for the other unis she applied to) and sat the BMAT at school.

I also agree with focusing on three A levels to get the best grades, and maybe an EPQ. Medical schools don't recognise maths and further maths as two different subjects as they are too similar so it is pointelss taking the FM other than to prove that she is capable of coping with a heavy workload.

Round our way the UCAT is taken at the same place that people take the driving test theory exam, and you have to book it yourself.

Round our way the UCAT is taken at the same place that people take the driving test theory exam

Don't know about where the driving theory test or the UCAT is taken here (possibly all in the same place, though), but when DD was intending to apply for law, we discovered that the LNAT location looks to be in the same place as the County Court. If the first question you're asked is,How do you plead?, I guess you know you've gone in through the wrong door...

Your DD definitely needs biology and chemistry

Not true. Several Universities accept those without biology, and a few even accept those without chemistry. DDs offer was for two lab based subjects.

it’s better to get the best grades possible in three A levels than to take four and risk slightly lower grades

Not necessarily true. First for good mathematicians, taking FM increases your chances of getting a good grade in maths, and is unlikely to take up as much time as a non maths A level. Second it depends on what sort of medicine she wants to practice. Maths increasingly underpins all sorts of medicine and genuine mathematicians will have an advantage in some areas. Especially at places like Imperial, which is a six year course, but where some of the fourth year options are limited to those with strong maths.

My daughter is at Imperial now, on an intercalation that was apparently seriously competitive for both internal and external students. The fact she has five relevant A levels will have done her no harm at all. Her friend who is intercalating as an internal student, is a very gifted mathematician, had already planned to take something involving infection and immunology. She is slightly disappointed as she thinks the course will now be dominated by Covid 19, but clearly her maths will be an advantage. (Again she will have four, perhaps five A levels.)

The thing to watch out for is that very few if any medical schools will accept double maths as two A levels. So start with four, and then drop the FM if she needs to. FWIW DD finds that being used to a heavier work load has left her with good work organisation skills, which are a real advantage, and an ability to work hard play hard which will stand her in good stead at the Junior Doctor stage. Her observation is that the ones who really struggle are those that relied on tutors to get through three A levels. They are used to someone else organising them, and helping them through material a second time, when actually they needed to have learnt that you go to lectures and when there, you concentrate.

your DD definitely needs biology and chemistry
"Not true. Several Universities accept those without biology, and a few even accept those without chemistry. DDs offer was for two lab based subjects."

They do, although most most medical schools prefer both, and I would suggest that it is better to take both.

DD isn't doing medicine, but biomedical sciences. She said she felt sorry for the students who didn't take both A levels because they had a lot of catching up to do on the subject they didn't do, especially chemistry..

She also struggled because most of her friends did AQA biology and her school did Edexel and covered some completely different topics. The university lecturers just assumed prior knowledge of the topics DD didn't study so it was a lot of extra work for her. It didn't stop her from achieveing a high overall grade at the end of the year though.

Oh, and DD struggles, not because she was tutored, but she has ME/CFS, and this was the main reason she decided not to pursue applying for medicine.

But Ginfordinner, isn't that tautologous. If a University demands A level biology, they will expect students to have covered the A level biology syllabus. If A level biology is not a requirement they can't expect prior knowledge and will adjust their teaching accordingly.

That said chemistry A level is a requirement for most places, partly I assume because it is a subject that more students are likely to struggle with, so provides a good indicator of future performance. Biology is studied in much greater depth so A level is not that important as you repeat it all anyway.

In terms of boards, DD took OCR MEI maths, which is a bit obscure, but she had the opposite experience of having covered big chunks of her first year maths at med school, which others with maths A level had not.

I agree that you need stamina for medical school. Placements in particular can involve really early starts, especially if using public transport, and long days. Which is why getting used to a reasonably heavy load at school is not a bad thing, if a student has the capacity to handle it.

@LillyM50 3 A levels and an EPQ in a medical subject so can talk in depth at interview. You don't need maths so if hate it do something else - can be drama, pe of history, no one will care.
Do UCAT at end of year 12 or that summer. BMAT if want to in September or November.
Apply strategically - I don't know Imperials selection criteria but others do so make sure you fit it. No point using a previous UCAS option if you are not going to get an interview. Eg Cardiff require 7/8 A** star equivalents. Lots use UCAT score. Some a combination of GCSE and UCAT. And Exeter uses predicted grades so best to have 3A star predictions.
Have a favourite but be prepared to be flexible and research the course structure. They are v different. Full body dissection vs prosecution. CBL vs PBL vs Integrated. Early patient contact or none. Choose what fits you and where you fit their selection criteria (not admissions !). And good luck

It isn't tautology if you didn't learn the topics in the first place. Having a completely different spec between the exam boards for science subjects must make it difficult for the universities because they can't assume prior knowledge.

@Needmoresleep OP's daughter has said she would like to study at Imperial who require both Biology and Chemistry A-level. There are a few med schools where you don't need both but it would severely limit her choices.

Needmoresleep is right that being a gifted mathemetician can be a huge advantage. If your DD wanted to take the intercalated BSc in Biomedical Engineering at Imperial, she would need strong maths. She should be fine for the other options. The options are here, if she is interested:

www.imperial.ac.uk/medicine/study/undergraduate/intercalated-bsc-programme/

I would 100% recommend doing Maths A-level for medicine for any student who is an natural mathematician. On the other hand, you really don't need very advanced maths knowledge for the MBBS course at Imperial or anywhere else. There isn't anything mathematical on the syllabus that I didn't study at university in the dark ages and I found it easy despite beeing a total duffer at maths My highest maths qualification is a B in the obsolete AO-level Pure Mathematics with Mechanics.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. I realise there is so much I haven't got a clue of. She does work 3 hours/week as a photographer but I am not counting this as work experience as it's not medical. Maybe it's still beneficial? She wasn't looking for this but was unexpectedly offered it as she sold one of her photographs commercially. She's done that for 9 months now but classes it very much as her hobby.

I will talk to her about further maths. The sixth form also said it wasn't a good idea but decided they would let her if she gets a grade 8. She already achieved a grade 9 in her mocks in January and final grade was also 9.

I have spoken with the school about work experience and the school organises optional work experience at the end of Y12 so that would help also I assume.

I will probably re-read all your messages several times and start making a shortlist. DD purchases some "so you want to be a doctor" books and has started reading those. DD had never had any tutors, she's very much an independent student. I normally just provide endless cups of tea with biscuits.

She's very focused and hard working but I do think she edges on the shy side (which worries me for the interviews) She was deputy head last year but interview feedback was that she came over quietly confident.

I keep asking her ... are you sure this is for you? She normally just gives me a smile back.

Where can I find info on all the different course details pls? It's just going through all the websites?

Imperial is commutable - 1h and 20min at worst. So is any other London uni. She also wants to apply for Cambridge but as you all say it will need to be tactile.

So much to think about. I am sure she will start the ball rolling soon herself. I just want to ensure i can motivate her from the side-line.

Thank you all so much!

Mumsneedwine, the course your daughter is on sounds very different to other medical schools. First year maths has been the bit many of DDs peers have found most difficult, yet a basic understanding of probability and statistics is pretty critical in diagnostics. In her group some had A level maths but others did not, and some really struggled.

Maths is useful. Probably more useful than physics, and almost certainly more useful than PE and gaining increasing importance with advances in scanning, prosthetics, nano technology and the rest. (On one placement DD found herself explaining how a scanner worked. She had done some sort of coursework project on it as part of her physics A level. The Clinical Teaching Fellow was impresse.. She did not know. Other countries apparently include some medical engineering as part of a standard medical degree, and find it strange that we don’t.

But it sounds like OPs daughter is good at maths. Imperial, from observation, seem to prioritise academic high flyers.

DD did not take an EPC, nor did any of her friends. MMI interviews are pretty formulaic. There is not much scope to go off piste. If the choice is between FM an EPC or even volunteering/school leadership and other extra curricular, do the maths if she likes it, or opt for activities that will extend and enhance soft skills like resilience, communication and team working. The latter come in very useful.

@LillyM50 feel free to ask questions throughout the process. It feels daunting at the start ! Course info is on each website but also the Medical Schools council do a guide which gives brief info.
All work experience is valuable. DD worked at Waitrose and interviewers liked that she had shown time management studying and working, commitment and customer service. She did a week at a GP (lots will take if you ask but not at your own) and 3 days in a hospital (lots do organised experience).
Cambridge is a very old fashioned course being pre clinical and then clinical. Some love that. Integrated courses are usually case based learning with patient contact. So DD will have lectures on the heart, dissect the heart of their cadaver, do case studies on heart patients and spend time on a cardiac ward, then they'll move into the next system. Suits DD.
Oh and @Needmoresleep DD has 3 A stars and an A star EPQ so she probably could have gone to Imperial if she's wanted. But she hates London 😊

The Medical Schools Council link I posted has all the admissions criteria and stats, as well as general information about studying medicine @LillyM50 It also has links to all the different medical schools where you can find the specific course outlines, more detailed information.

1 hour 20 minutes is a long commute. Most of the teaching for medicine at Imperial is split between the South Ken campus and Charing Cross Hospital in Hammersmith (where most of the students end up living after the first year), sometimes both on the same day. Clinical placements are further afield (years 3, 5 and 6 with short placements in years 1 and 2) in Paddington, Chelsea, Hammersmith, East Acton, Twickenham, Northwick Park near Harrow, Southall, Harlesden, Uxbridge, Watford (Hertfordshire) and Chertsey (Surrey). It's the same for all the London medical schools, placements are over a wide area, although you can get hospital accommodation for the furthest placements. It's worth baring this in mind if your DD plans on living at home. She may well miss out on the (very busy) social side of med school if she lives so far away.

@LillyM50 Note also that if you go to the relevant websites and dig deep enough, they tell you how they assess applicants (don't look at their minimum criteria, just about everybody applying will have those, look deeper at where they talk about how they assess for interview. Some on UCAT scores, some on BMAT scores, some on GCSEs, some on a combination). But be warned, they do sometimes change them year on year. Liverpool this year have changed theirs to put more weight on GCSEs, because for this year's cohort, they felt that was fairer, as the GCSEs were sat by this year's Year 12's under normal conditions, while the UCAT etc was by no means normal. I suspect that they will take a different view next year, given that the GCSEs of this year's Year 11s were based on teacher assessments etc, and there are a lot of good results, making it even harder for the medical schools to winnow down the numbers. So be prepared for changes on how they assess. I would guess that, assuming life is back to normal by next summer, the UCAT and the BMAT might become more important, and GCSEs less, at least for next year's applicants. But you probably won't know that until at least January/February, and maybe later.

btw, just a caveat on the advice above about 3 or 4 A levels. While I agree that in general there is no advantage to taking 4 A levels, and there is a risk one might spread oneself too thin, there is at least one notable exception, namely Barts and the London - where they go on UCAS tariff, and a whole additional A level gets you loads more points (even an AS level helps, I noticed, when I went to do a calculation, as well as an EPQ and music grades 6 and above, drama grades 6 and above etc). This was not relevant to us, because DS emphatically does not want to be in London, but the OP here has a daughter who specifically does want London, and if London is your primary focus, it is worth knowing this. Your UCAT score can be a lot lower if you have all these other extras.

One thing to start now is a reflective journal on her volunteering, work and photography - very useful for personal statement and interviews. Any evidence of thinking hard about communication, empathy and other people’s experience is worth recording at the time - particularly where things have gone wrong

Orange - is it true that bmat will now take place in September? I can't see this info anywhere online.